I perceive several things awry with the typical, romantic, viewpoint of marriage.

1. When one gets married because one is in love, the marriage is because of love. If the love wanes or changes (as it so often does over the years) this is directly related in the mind to the marriage. There becomes no difference between "our relationship isn't good" and "our marriage isn't good". So when the point is reached of "I don't feel love for you anymore" this translates directly into a termination of the marriage.
   If, instead, the love/relationship and the marriage are seen as two separate things, a trouble in the relationship can lead to a strengthening of commitment to the marriage while the relationship is worked on.
2. There can be a tendency to rely on being married as an emotional and even financial prop. It is all too easy for one or both in the relationship to not be concerned enough about the relationship's maintenance. If this is among the concerns of the person not wanting to marry then far from non-marriage implying lack of commitment, it will be that non-marriage is a very direct desire for the relationship to last.
3. People marry too often without thinking about what it means, they assign their own romantic ideals to it, imagining the relationship together and rarely actually thinking about the commitment and all possible outcomes. Even when they do think of their wedding vows and the implications, they are actually concentrating on the wrong thing (see next point).
4. Marriage is a social contract, entered into by two people only because they are both party to it (you don't get a marriage with only one saying "I do"). However, it is the only contract where the legal ability to break the contract has nothing to do with the terms of contract. The vows, legally enforced (in the UK), actually have no legal validity. You cannot avoid the marriage being legally broken by proving you kept to your vows and you don't need to refer to the other person's vows in obtaining a divorce. Furthermore, the terms of divorce can - and do - change periodically, so you can't even hold to the terms you initially married under.
5. Having confidence that the relationship will last just because you are married is proven over and over to be a harmful and damaging experience. Sure, a relationship without marriage can require more confidence, more effort from both partners but this has to be better for the relationship in the long term. Far better than having false confidence is having justified confidence based on the efforts both make toward a satisfying relationship.

Statistics can always be baffling but the last I saw of Inland Revenue (UK) statistics, there is no noticeable difference in the chance of a change in partner between those who are married and those who live-as-married. I believe there are statistics prepared for California that show something similar, too. A belief that marriage is going to lead to a longer relationship than a committed non-marriage is unfounded.
Douglas.

If a man doesn't love a woman enough to marry her...

I don't see that it has anything to do with love. As I've pointed out, he may care enough about a relationship with her not to marry her.

...is there any reason why he should expect her to give him total submission?

The only reason he should expect her to give him any submission is because it is what is going to satisfy her. Just the same as with her expecting him to give her any domination.

Douglas.

I certainly agree with the potential for dissatisfaction in a relationship where major desires - whatever they are - cannot be fulfilled. I'm also aware that some people, whether male or female, are unable to control cravings even if they might be destructive in another's eyes (or even their own). I know of people who have not been able to get it out of their heads that someone doesn't love them if they are not willing to live with them without being married and I know of people who think just the opposite. I have noticed before that some of them just don't seem interested in changing their mind, even though they otherwise feel they have the perfect partner.

As to how much I think I know about women: I've made a lifetime study of them. I now feel I know enough about them to write an entire essay about them ... on the back of a postage stamp ;-)

My partner and I have been together for 11yrs and we have 3 children.

I am quite relieved i read this page as i was beginning to feel abnormal. I want to get married and he doesn't, our relationship is suffering because of this, sometimes I feel so angry with him because he can't see how much it hurts me that he doesn't want to marry me - that he doesn't love me enough - that i am not good enough. It is not a stable situation and i know i am driving him away, but i cant stop that little voice from eating away at me ...maybe he just doesn't love me enough to marry me.

If you've only been together a year I'd give it some time. A year seems to me to be hardly any time. Sure, a lot of people propose after six months and get married after a year. I'm sure many times it's even successful, but in my mind there is nothing wrong with a long courtship. We have been together nearly three years, and had been talking on line long before we met. We have discussed marriage, and for us, it's a matter of finances and logistics as much as anything. I suspect one day we'll run off and elope and then find a way to tell the very large family why they were not invited to a formal Catholic wedding. I know I'd like to do it at a point where financially I didn't feel I'd have to take out a loan to do it (I suspect we could probably find a way to do the wedding cheaply enough through a Justice of the Peace, but I wouldn't get away with not throwing one hell of a reception). I'm already paying enough on college loans and foolish credit card purchases from the college years to make me hesitant to take on anything else. I wonder how many guys don't get "cold feet" from the marriage, but from knowing all the ordeal that will be involved in the wedding. Just thinking about it makes me want my slippers.

This is a strictly prejudicial posting, aimed at those considering marriage to get them to consider SOME KIND OF PRE-MARITAL COUNSELING, based on opinions developed from some harsh personal experience.

As a devout Catholic, what I propose for those considering marriage most likely contradicts the teachings of the Church.

For those who choose not to become Catholic, go through the motions of conversion, all the way through baptism and confirmation. Then, go through the Pre-Cana marriage preparation, after having set the wedding date about a year in advance. Be *totally* honest in response to all questions regarding your feelings toward one another. If the priest approves the pending marriage, that is a good indication that the two of you are good for each other, at least as good as can be expected. If you don't want a Catholic wedding, it is simple enough to cancel the date and make other arrangements.

For those who are completely averse to any association with the Catholic Church, there are Protestant Denominations that offer similar pre-marital counseling. You may have to do a bit of investigating to find a denomination and/or a pastor who will tear your relationship apart to see if the both of you are sufficiently compatible to consider marriage.

Of course, there are those of you who choose to refuse Christianity altogether for whatever reason; perhaps you are a Jew, Muslim, Pagan, or Atheist. I won't be an "out-of-the-box" typical Christian and try to convert you. What I *will* insist on is that you get *some* *quality* pre-marital counseling before marriage, PREFERABLY through your own religion if it offers such, and if not, then through *some* organization that will offer it.

KrosRogue

Here is the good news (oh dear, pun not intended, really) CJ, your man does not have to convert. I am Catholic and my husband is atheist. The church has changed a lot since our parents' day. In fact, our local priest wanted to find out who had the stronger faith, and if it turned out that I went to Mass once a month where as he went every week to (say) a Baptist Church and was quite devout, then the priest would have suggested that we marry in the Baptist Church. He also did not recommend converting for the sake of the wedding. Conversion is a serious decision that is not to be taken lightly or for reasons other than personal faith. Father said that if hubby was interested later on and wanted to convert then that was fine, but did not recommend it at that time for the wedding ceremony.

We were able to have a Catholic ceremony in a Catholic church. When the husband (or wife) is not Catholic then a full mass is not recommended as one party (and his whole family) would not be able to share in the Eucharist anyway, and exclusion is not be a good way to start a marriage. I could have had a full Nuptial Mass (my first choice) if Jack, with out any prompting from me, asked to have a Nuptial Mass. The priest said that it doesn't happen very often.

So never fear, if you really want to marry in the Catholic Church then that is possible. In fact, many of Jacks family loved the Church wedding even though they did not have one themselves. Your fiance would not have to say anything religious. I understand not wanting to push him into something that he may not want to do. I respect my husband's views even though I do not share them and would never try to convert him. (anyway, Catholic converts can be so zealous!) Good luck.

Three years seems to me to be quite enough time to make up your mind whether you want to marry someone or not. If she is still undecided, then it could be that she doesn't really want to marry you. People who say they aren't ready to get married often mean (perhaps without realising it) that they just don't want to marry that particular person.

If you feel that you don't want to hang on indefinitely, then perhaps you should tell her that you really want to get married, and that if she doesn't, then it would be better if you ended the relationship. This might help her to make her mind up definitely. Perhaps if she realises that you are not willing to hang around indefinitely waiting for her, then it will make her decide that she does want to marry you after all. Or she may realise that she doesn't want to marry you at all. Either way it might be better than hanging around in a state of uncertainty.

If she does decide that she doesn't really want to marry you, then I hope you will soon meet someone else with whom you are more compatible.

Louise

I love this girl, as she is mostly honest with me about anything. However, there's something in our past that is haunting me. She broke up with me after a year and half relationship to go back to her ex whom she truly loved at the time. He proposed, and she accepted. It didn't take long until she realized that he's not the one. "I had to get to the serious part to realize what's right for me" she said. It took me a while to think if I want her back, but somehow I was convinced that mistakes happen and maybe it happened for a reason. So I did take her back and it's been another 8 month that we are back together and of course it's better than before and ever. But when I raised the marriage talk, she temps to run away with these reasons :


1. My sister married early and she keeps on telling me to enjoy my life before I get married.

2. All my cousins tell me the same.

3. I do think of you (me) when it comes to marriage and ONLY YOU but I don't believe in taking this step just after I graduate.

4. Ever since I was a child, I hated getting married after I graduate. I need at least a year.

5. When I said “Yes” before, it was just because he shocked me and caught me at a corner and I was confused and didn’t want to disappoint him.


To me, it seems like she's scared and also she doesn't realize that she is not that into me yet. Just the fact that she said yes before quickly and now it's more of a "Being Smart with making decisions" killing me from inside (Even though I didn't propose yet, just casually asked her). It's funny how much you are willing to take when you love someone. Also, I feel like if the other guy was “the one”, she would’ve been married by now. She did tell me that she will take my concern and think about it while we’re still dating.

Sorry, it was a long read; but I am very confused.

PS: Thank you Louise for hoping well for me.

i want to reply to all the people on here who keep insisting that marriage is synonymous with commitment, intimacy, and true love. It's not. Marriage is a myth - and a very powerful one for too many people. The high divorce rate, people who have had multiple marriages, the existence of long non-intimate and unhappy marriages (y'know, the couples who go to separate rooms when they get home), and the long history of adultery within marriage are proof enough that people who decide to "take the plunge" are NOT necessarily good together or committed to each other. Sheeesh, I wish people would wake up. Relationships are only as deep, intimate, and long lasting as the amount of bonding and work put into them on a daily basis. I have been to lots of weddings that have since broken up, spent money on their stupid present, and now they're divorced with kids. Sure, everyone applauded them for "making a commitment". Well, they weren't committed. End of story. I am happily unmarried and VERY in love and commited. I'm just not a sucker for stories and lies. Plus I refuse to legitimize a ceremony and "state" that means nothing for so many people.

What a bunch of feminist b.s.! Maybe the reason is many, many women these days are not worthy! Years ago, a women respected her man.. dressed to impress her man & stood by her man. today's women is more concerned with how many friends she has on facebook. i see grown women in the grocery store in thier pajamas. Many have lost their motherly instincts and can not even handle children. i see many more good fathers in relationships now that play both roles - working, only to come home, cook & clean because the modern women was busy cruising in her escalade all day sipping on starbucks.. don't hate me - look around & see the truth people. prove me wrong women!

I've been with my boyfriend almost two years. I grew up not being close to my dad and my mom never being married to anyone, i attended alot of diffewrent churches in my teenage years, just to hear what they had to say about marriage. I would not say that i am 100% religious but i am a christian and i do want to live by God's laws, i have knowledge from past experiences that when ido meet his standards my life is generally happier and a lot more relaxed.

I asked myboyfriend about marriageand at first he said he definitely wanted to marry me but just not yet, then some time later when i brought it up again he said he doesn't believe in marriage and why should we get married when we live like a married couple. I asked earlier this year and he said that we would get married if i got pregnant, but i told him i really didn't want ti to be like that because i didn't want to have a child out of wedlock, however, unfortunaely for me I got pregnant like a month or two later and even then I still had to remind him of what eh said about marrying me if I was pregnant. I miscarried 3 months ago and since then he said he would marry me in December, but now as time draws closer to December and i asked him why he hasn't started preparing the documents yet he announced he's not ready to get married. I am extremely depressed and annoyed at him.

I'm not trying to speak badly of myself but when I was in my late teens I got kind of wild and stopped believing in love or looking for commitment or marriage from anyone because I always got hurt by guys. I was with a guy for a year and neither of us wanted marriage and he had one child and didn't want anymore so when i met my current boyfriend and we became close he told me i was selling myself short and that i should expect more fromlife and from a relationship not just being with someone and knowing it won't ever go any farther than just being friends and bed mates, but now he is doing the exact same thing to me and it is breaking me down inside.

Earlier this year when i asked about marriage and he said we would if I got pregnant i honestly felt in myheart like walking away, like he was asking me to give more of myself than he was ever gonna give to me, but I stayed out of love then a short while after I was pregnant and stuck.

I'm not sure how I feel anymore, I just know that waiting on him to decide if he values me enough to marry me has changed me, it's made my heart become cold towards him and especially after loosing the baby, i felt extremely alone and useless and now i find myself wanting to talk to other guys. Even though I love my boyfriend i've become an angry, cold and deceptive person because of his constant rejection of me and because it feels like he uses me constantly and never delivers on anything he says.

I'm angry and depressed and not sure what's left for me.

I am also in the situation of being with a man (over 6 years) who is a good few years older than me and we have a child together, and he simply does not 'believe' in it as he says and has no desire to be married. I hear this as 'I dont believe in marrying you and you're not good enough'. One huge argument we had once he said he wants to be 'in love' before he gets married and that we argue a lot so is it really a good idea to get married- translated into venusian I hear 'im not in love with you and I dont expect our relationship to last'. Why then do I stay with him? security?fear? I guess I love him deep down although sometimes its hard to feel love for someone who treats me this way. I pretend now that I don't want to get married (although now I do feel quite negative about it) and I carry on as the 'practicing housewife' keeping the house tidy and cooking his dinner etc etc etc, waiting home for him and I have been doing this since the tender age of 20.

I am happy a lot of the time although I have suffered from acute anxiety and I think I could pinpoint the root cause but that would be opening a can of worms im sure....

I guess in the long run we have to be happy with what we have, or pretend on the bad days, sometimes I loose my temper I guess thats to be expected. Im still grateful for all I have though.

I am confused not sure what to do? I've been in a this relationship for 5 and half years and been home owners for 2 years. I have told him that I would like to get married where it always turns in to a fight. He always mentions that i first need to get counseling do to me being so impatient also due to trust issues that I have from my childhood with seeing my father cheating. I am more than willing to go get counseling. But I believe that this relationship has caused me to feel depressed at times also not worth much. I would think that I have been patient -- almost 6yrs and no marriage yet. Me wanting to be married and him not doing it has really made me a depressed angry and mean person. This is not the person that i am. At times i just want to walk out but i can't seem to do it. He is an awesome guy and a totally respects me. But I also believe that I might not be the girl that he wants to marry even though he tells me he does just not yet. Help i feel like am going crazy when i really shouldn't.

Bamboolized-Same situation is occuring with me minus me not having a child. I can't even imagine having a child being involved. We've been together for 6 years-he asked me to move in with him about a year ago and he was ready to be engaged by the time I was 25(i'm 24 now) and be married by 26/27..well I moved all my stuff last night and I am not at my parents house. mind you I have just recently quit my job because I needed to find something closeer ( I had a one hour commute at his place and it was 10 minutes from my parents place) so I have no income, no home and it is purely my fault.

It's been a month since you posted-are you still in the same situation?

I'm with a guy I have full confidence will never stray. After two years, he's still anti "paper" relationship. I'm not sure if I want to get married because I want to please my parents or because I want to be with this person without a fear of his leaving.

I saw a woman the other day who was engaged with no wedding plans. She said, "We'll probably be engaged forever. It's not like either of us want kids."

I've settled for the idea of no marriage, but some people can't.

I love ME a lot, but I think I love him just as much. I can't imagine not being with him, and paper relationship or not, we're still together.

Now, if he doesn't want to move in or treats me bad... Oh, then there will be issues. The relationship has to progress at some point.

But for some people, despite that they've warned you, they can SLOWLY make progress. Maybe not marriage progress, but they can open up in ways that make you afraid to leave because of what you know they're capable of.

...has respect for his own word. If he promised marriage (a proposal IS a PROMISE!!!) If he dishonors his word, he dishonors himself. Since the promise directly involves you, he simultaneously dishonors you as well.

I suggest you terminate any relationship with him that extends beyond mere acquaintanceship.

A man who dishonors his word values nothing and should be regarded as such.

He values NOTHING! He has NO respect for himself OR you.

Dump him before he destroys you!

Mick McCleod

In my opinion a woman surrendering herself to a man that is not willing to commit to her as his wife is surrendering to an emotionally sterile relationship. I'm willing to believe that it may be enjoyable for some people, but I (as a male) can't imagine myself investing any kind of time in such a relationship. It sounds like a very unbalanced relationship where there is no proper correspondence between power and responsibility.