The resistant woman

I've read the discussion about submissiveness vs. dominance. What I look for in a girl is neither submissiveness nor dominance but resistance. I want is a woman who has the strength to be resistant.

Other guys might like it if their girlfriends are obedient, submissive, pliable and passive but I don't like that. It's boring! I like a girl who bites back! A woman who's something to push against, and who can push me. I hate to see girls diminishing themselves and losing their natural resistance and personality when they get with a guy. I've seen it a lot. It's like they disappear. I like a woman with a big personality who doesn't give away her power and submit when she's with areal man. That's not an easy thing to find. Girls tend to cave in and become submissive even if they're tough and dominant in most parts of their life. I think it's the estrogen!

I want a woman who's in control. Or trying to be. Not that she'd be able to control me but she can have fun trying. I won't allow a girl to control me—I'm not that kind of guy—it's about being in control of herself. It's the attitude and strength of will I'm looking for, I'm not into being dominated.

If a girl is submissive, obedient and docile, she's probably not strong enough to withstand what I'm going to do to her. It's part of my particular brand of masculinity to be physically and mentally tough and challenging so in general I'm not attracted to girls like that. If a girl won't enjoy the rough and tumble, the physicality, the violent love and verbal jousting they'd get from me we won't have the compatibility. If she will, we might have a future.

Is it surprising the girls I'm attracted to are the more masculine looking ones who are intimidating to most guys? I see the femininity that lies beneath the surface, and that femininity is more real than the painted obvious femininity of more obviously feminine girls. When you find the femininity in a girl who doesn't let the world see it, there's a vulnerability I've not found in other kinds of women.

I don't know why women think men want obedient women. What this guy wants is not submissiveness but resistance. A worthy sparring partner in the battle of life!

Eric

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Comments

Resistant Women

I enjoyed reading this post very much. As a woman who probably falls in to the "looks more masculine" catagory, you've left me with a sliver of hope! I keep my hair short because it's easy (and suits me), my makeup either non-existent or super-dramatic (none of this smudge of lipstick and mascara crap) my clothing comfortable and funky. I love a good, heated debate and rough sex.

I think that there are many women like me who don't deal with the feminine=submissive equation that is usually drawn. Pearls of wisdom like "dress in a more feminine fashion (skirts and pastels) and wear your hair long" or "lowering your eyes and looking up through your lashes is sexy, submissive and feminine" do nothing for me. I can't help but point out that as "feminine" is the adjective of "female", then as a female I am intrinsically feminine. And I don't bat my eyelashes or giggle like a pothead. In fact, I loathe the women I meet that I consider "girly-girls". They bore me. I lift heavy things. I can walk home by myself after dark. But having said that, I enjoy being taken in hand. I love a very dominant man—one with the strength to maintain power over me.

In past relationships, I've felt the need to back myself down a bit. All the reading I've done has made me feel that if I need to change who I am to attract the kind of guy I want. Because the kind of guy that I want seem to be attracted to the kind of girl that I am not.

So thankyou, Eric. Perhaps there's a man out there for me yet.

Cudos

If I didn't know better, I would have thought you were I, or I was you. Your article mirrored my own feelings and characteristics. It's good to know I am not alone in them. Thanks and good luck to you in this wonderful life! TxLady

Another resistant woman

Where to find more men like you? I'm extremely resistent, but just because I want force.

Girls Changing For The Guy

Changing for the guy won't get you what you want, it's just another form of diminishing yourself, making yourself invisible, giving in. That's behaving in a beta submissive way. For guys that like a resistant woman, that's nothing but a turn off. To attract the kind of person you want, you have to be yourself, I really believe that. Be more yourself not less, be proud of who you are. Don't back down. Don't sell out.

Changing for myself

Eric says that changing for the guy diminishes a woman. Well, I would agree if he means changing in the sense of pretending to be something you're not, putting on an act or something like that, but for me that isn't how it's worked. Changing certain aspects of my behaviour that exasperated my husband has led to greater domestic harmony and has made us both happier. I feel that changing has been of benefit to myself, as much if not more than to my husband, and I feel enhanced rather than diminished. It does not have to mean behaving in an idiotic fashion, giggling, or looking up through your lashes (my husband being the kind of man he is, if I did that he'd only ask me if I'd got something in my eye anyway). Sparring can be great fun, but it is possible to have too much of it, especially when it can escalate, as in our case it frequently did, into a full-scale row. Changing just a little bit to accomodate someone else's needs is not really such a terrible thing to do. I don't know that women do think men want obedient women, some men do, some men don't I suppose. It would certainly never have occured to my husband to demand obedience from me, it's something I chose for myself. Sparring's nice, but there comes a time when you want peace, at any rate that's what I want.

There's Changing and there's Changing

I agree with you, Louise. What I said was in reply to what that other girl wrote, it wasn't a general comment meaning don't make any changes.

The Tough Gal Who Likes A Real Man

My kinda woman is Maureen O'Hara in the old movies. That lady had balls! McClintock, The Quiet Man, etc. She gave as good as she got, and the men were Real Men too. Gotta love those old movies. And she was regularly taken in hand too!

Maureen O'Hara

I like Maureen O'Hara too, but I don't much care for either The Quiet Man or McClintock, I'm not a John Wayne fan, he's too coarse for my taste. My favourite O'Hara films are 'Under Two Flags' with Errol Flynn (much yummier than John Wayne), and 'The Black Swan' with Tyrone Power (I'm very turned on by pirates). I don't think she ever did a film with Clark Gable which is a pity, I think they would have been good together.

Of mice and men behind the silver screen

Errol Flynn was married three times and fathered at least as many children. Always the charmer, Flynn was accused of statutory rape, bisexual pedophilia, and Nazi sympathizes.

John Wayne was the stage name of Marion Michael Morrison. Most likely, Wayne became a superpatriot because the budding Hollwood star found it more fun to play a war hero than to be one.

Instead of signing up—as did Henry Fonda, Clark Gable, Jimmy Stewart, and John Ford (who would later direct Wayne in several movies)—the hard-drinking Wayne cranked out thirteen war movies, got into several bar fights with men in uniform, and made a USO tour of the Pacific theater during World War II.

Marion Morrison was married three times and fathered seven children. As with his war films, Wayne's work on McLintock and Quite Man may have been to experience what Marion Morrison could never achieve with the women in his life.

Even though much of John Wayne's personal philosophy appears in McLintock, Maureen O'Hara—who gave up her film career during her successful marriage to a man, who was in real life everything Wayne played on screen—probably understood what Marion Morrison needed to do in real life better than Morrison's alter ego (Wayne) understood himself.

Some of O'Hara's understanding appears in the earnestness with which she plays the Taming of the Shrew vignettes in The Quite Man—filmed a decade earlier than McLintock. Rumor has it that O'Hara also chided Wayne for not spanking her hard enough during the filming of McLintock.

Errol Flynn

We used to have the biography of him that made all those accusations about him being a Nazi etc in the library where I worked years ago. There was an old man who used to go berserk every time he saw the book and would start shouting and swearing. I had one colleague who was very evil, and every time he saw this old man come in he would get the book out and put it on the display stand on purpose, just to set him off. I once read an inteview in the paper with Maureen O'Hara, and she said she wished she had a dollar for every time she'd had her bottom smacked on screen, but I've never seen a movie of hers that was 'S' rated apart from McLintock. I like Elsa Lanchester's comment about her "She looks like butter wouldn't melt in her mouth, or anywhere else".

Resistant Women Unite!

I love a very dominant man—one with the strength to maintain power over me.

It has been such a joy and relief for me to find I am not alone in my dichotomy of personality. To be intelligent, aggressive and successful during the day and when I come home to want to release the reins to the big, strong man in my life; to manage my staff better than I, seemingly, manage myself and choose to defer my management to someone who truly has my best interest at heart; to be able to direct a company, but to be unable to pull myself out of the abyss of self recrimination when I make a mistake.

I've spent my life with self help books attempting to "figure out" how and why I tick the way I do, because there seemed to be something wrong with me. I have read so many stories from the women posting on this site, and all I can say is I want what you seemingly have: honesty, passion, intimacy, emotional release and security. I seem to be able to create security for those around me (I was a single parent for several years) but not for myself. I am married again and my heart directed me to this man because he is my compliment, the one who can give me what I need; I just have to do what I know I need to do. To let go of the fear and trust. Easier said than done!

Resistant Woman, Here!

I don't know if "resistant" is really the right term. In the thread on high, medium and low dominance women, I discovered I am high domnance according to Maslow but that I don't necessarily want a man to be higher dominance than me. I want someone who is equal. Maybe we will just use spanking for fun, forever. Maybe we'll take each other in hand, someday. Who knows.

What I do know is, I'm not obedient. I'm not submissive. I'm not pastel pink sweety-sweet feminine but I am plenty female. Warning, I have a brain and I know how to use it!

I can be soft and yielding one minute and hard as nails the next. I can flow from Top to bottom and back to Top again in a heartbeat. I've got a sense of humor, a passion for justice, and like Popeye, I yam what I yam, whether anybody likes it or not. I've got high testosterone and while that causes annoying facial hair, it makes me hornier than the average woman!

So Eric, I wish I had a sister just like me, because she'd be happy with you! Meantime, my husband happens to be plenty happy to have me even though I don't knuckle under and do as he says..or else.

Submission can be a sign of strength

Eric wrote:

I like a woman with a big personality who doesn't give away her power and submit when she's with a real man.

Eric....I understand why you would not want to be in a relationship with an obsequious woman or a woman who is overly deferential. I, too, am attracted to women who possess some self-knowledge and who are unafraid to voice their opinion. However, it would be wrong to associate submission with weakness. It takes a strong woman who possesses a clear understanding of herself to submit to the leadership of a man she trusts.

This woman would understand her need for a strong man who is capable of taking her in hand. Arriving at, and then accepting this kind of self=knowledge takes an inner strength that is not evident in all people. It should be no surprise that many of us arrive at this kind of self-knowledge later in life.

My wife is an example of such a woman. She did not enter our relationship from a position of weakness. She understood her desire/need and made her own decision to live this way. I must say that there is something very attractive about an intelligent, capable woman submitting to the leadership of her man. And gee...it feels natural.

The Strong, Submissive Woman

Stephen -

Thanks for your comment, very interesting, and I agree with you. I have no argument with what you said, I merely have a personal preference for a woman who expresses herself in resistant ways rather than just submissive ways. There's no question many submissive women are strong and even dominant in their lives, but I want a woman who is not afraid to express that with me too. Not a woman who wants a submissive man—I am far from that—but one who while being resistant and in control also wants to be taken in hand.

Eric

The difference between submissive and submitting

Eric,

We may be saying the same thing, but I believe there is an important distinction to be made between a woman who possesses a submissive personality and a woman who is strong and independent, but submits only to the man she loves. The first woman behaves submissively in many or all social situations. Perhaps, she lacks self confidence or it may be that this is her natural self. This woman would submit, not only to her husband, but to anyone who she percieves is an authority figure. The second woman is not submissive by nature and has a clear understanding of who she is and what she wants. She posseses self-knowledge. She does not submit to just anyone, but instead makes a conscious and informed choice to submit to the man she trusts. She is not afraid to express an opinion and would be turned off by the man who would stifle her natural self. I prefer the second woman, because when she chooses to submit to my leadership she is honoring me with her trust... And to be honest, I do like a feisty, strong woman too. It makes her submission all the more sweet.

Stephen

Finally

Eric:
I WISH I could find a man like you! I envy the woman who has you. I have yet to find the man who "gets it" like you do—who respects my strength and yet understands my desire to submit—and doesn't confuse the two. Thank you for your post. ms

Thanks

To the writer of "Finally" --

I wish you the best in your search.

Strong Submissive Women

Stephen, I think we're in agreement. I don't think submissive=weak. It's just a matter of different tastes. I like a resistant woman not one that submits easily but I don't think one that submits easily is necessarily weak, any more than a dominant man is necessarily strong. There's strong and weak in both.

The Resistant Woman

Eric,
I agree with your comment wholeheartedly! I admit that basically I am a shy person, rather reserved, but I can hold my own with anyone debating a topic with me, I have a fierce temper and stubborness that was handed down to me by my ancestors. At times I even get physical, which I admit is not the most feminine thing in the world, but it does happen. What can I say. It is at those times that my husband rises to the challenge and "enjoys" our "interlude" so much!! He never is abusive, in language or physically, but the "magic" that happens between us during those episodes, his quiet yet dominating spirit, is something that I will not give up for anything in the world. Our souls meld, and we are one. I never did like the word "submissive", but "resistant" I am. Thankyou for your great article.

Strong Women

Hi Eric,

I am a strong woman. Many people would be surprised that I submit to my husband. I think I understand what you mean by "resistant". I would just like to add that I would not be attracted to a man at all who expected me to be submissive to the point where I lose part of who I am. Someone who expected a docile, obedient woman who did what he said, when he said no questions asked. I ask lots of questions and I call my husband on things if I think he is off track, illogical or just plain wrong. I tease him mercilessly sometimes and make him fight for what he wants.

I need a strong man, someone who CAN handle me, who can stand up to me. Submission is not something for me to give on a platter. My husband appreciates my submission even more because I am not submissive. It is a gift that I give only to him. He expects me to tell him what I think. Submission from a strong, independent, intelligent, even feminist woman is a huge turn on for my husband. He calls it a gift.

I think you can have resistant and submissive at the same time. If you mean a resistant women as someone who will stand up for what she believes is right, is strong willed and has a strong personality and who is not afraid to tell you what she thinks. If you earn her submission and never take it for granted, then you can have a woman who is both resistant and submissive. Woman like us can be a lot of work and we expect a lot from our men. I think we can be a lot of fun too and our submission to our men can have a lot meaning.

Take care,
Tevemer

Insightful post

Based on the responses from admiring women, Eric is the belle of the blog ball!

You're probably fending the girls off with a stick. Knock 'em dead! Oops, I shouldn't use those phrases here—someone might take it literally.

But seriously, I write this with good will... I just have an acerbic sense of humor. Carry on.

Woman with a tough spirit/independent mind

For the gentleman who wrote this daring article, which sent tingles through my body. I am a very feminine woman with sex appeal, although I don't bat my eyelashes and take crap from anyone much less men. I have a personality that keeps my man intrigued, while definitely challenged with every step. I am someone who is loving, sensitive, but also has a spirit of fire and consider myself someone who can hold her own, through voice and action. So don't count out feminine women, as you might just encounter one who will leave you speechless as she goes to bat with you.

Yes, I agree with not countin

Yes, I agree with not counting out the feminine women. I have surprised several suitors who made the mistake of basing what I look like as being naturally submissive just to learn very rapidly (and sometimes to their disappointment)that I am feisty and full of opinion with the intelligence to back it up. I love men who don't shy away or become turned off by my resistance to yeild to them because of the assumption of their gender. I am strong willed and physically fit and it is only the man that can love me for it that has a chance at capturing my heart--and he has.

Thank You

resistance

That is the word I have been looking for to express how I feel, what I am, what I do.

Also your article decribing your meaning of resistance perfectly fits.

After all, is it not how you define a word personally that you get meaning??

It is fun and I love it.

Not to be confused with other words like forced.

It is thrilling and I can always think of something new to ... aviod. I love it when I don't win and not just in a sexual nature : )

Eric the Great!

I found this site today and have had the double pleasure of realizing I am not odd in being an independent-minded woman who loves a strong, dominant male, but there are also men out there who relish the challenge of being with a woman who knows her own mental and emotional 'shape' and who doesn't automatically morph herself to fit the man (or people) she is with. The fun is in the 'negotiation'.

I've always had a soft spot for a guy who can physically pick me up and carry me to where I refuse to go—all in good fun, and even if sometimes I'll fight tooth and nail. Of course, he must also be the type of guy who will have the perceptiveness to see through me and be tender with me when this is called for. It is amazing the depth of tenderness possible at the point where strong personal forces meet.

I am strong willed and able to put up a good fight for my side so I don't ever feel completely free when I'm with someone I have to 'protect from me'. Holding myself back makes me feel stifled. I love it when I'm with someone who is playful and unafraid and who is willing to step into unknown terrain with me. Emotional, physical, or otherwise. This can be such an exciting experience.

One thing that about your article that was like a cool drink of water was the qualities you described in the women you find attractive. I've had this battle with a boyfriend in the past—where he attempted to persuade me to become a more girly girl than I actually am. This annoyed and insulted me, I liked him the way he was, it never occurred to me he was not fully appreciative of who I am. It was a rude and hurtful awakening.

Luckily there have been men in my life that have found the way I naturally am exciting and attractive, so I did not just give myself up. But I did start to wonder whether all the cliches were true. That you have to dress a certain way, be the girly girl, to attract your mate. The relationship suffered after that mainly because I still loved him although I scorned his narrow definition of womanliness. It changed both of us. He lost some of his convictions about women in frills and lace and after the huge fight I did actually try a few things to see if I liked them, but only to be sure I wasn't cutting off my nose to spite my face.

I like the possibility that I can become more of whatever I put my mind to, but I know underneath it all I'm a jeans and sneakers kind of girl and I also know the best thing of all (which your article affirms!)—that the guy who is drawn to me, is drawn to what's actually there and not some flimflam, glossy mirage of a girl that gets dismantled at night.

I was beginning to despair that these types of men are so few and far between. Everyone around me so correct and androgynous and overly polite and reserved. Men, so careful and soft and indestinct. Men with fussy hair. And then I read your article on resistent women! My only question Eric, is: where do men like you hang out?

An authentic Taken In Hand reader

I really love the comment above. To the writer of that comment: you sound so vibrantly, authentically yourself that I am sure that wherever the Erics of this world hang out, you will run into them, because you are proudly and joyfully being the person you are, rather than confusing the issue by attempting to conform to a lifeless stereotype. I wish you luck, but I don't think you need luck.

Eric the Great's viewpoint

It was with quite a bit of relief that I read Eric's article. I was having problems labeling myself "submissive" since I'm one of the strongest willed women I know. I'm a natural leader and I find it easy to take control of situations that others flounder at. On the other hand, when I'm with a strong, take-charge man, I feel completely fulfilled being controlled by him.

So I was happy to see Eric's viewpoint that not all women who want to be ontrolled by a man need to go peacefully to their fates, even knowing that its ultimately where they want to be and need to be. Having been brought up in a family of strong willed woman it's not always easy to balance these opposite sides of my personality. Thank you Eric!

Resistant Woman, Checking In

Thanks, Eric, for giving my state-of-being a name. I've never been comfortable thinking of myself as "submissive"—much less referring to myself that way! I definitely have my own opinions and my own agenda. I'll be the first to admit that I like to get my own way. I'm not at all attracted to wishy-washy men, however. They bring out the absolute worst in me. I tend to take advantage of (and lose respect for) them. I'd so much rather be with a man that wouldn't accept that type of behavior, past a certain point.

Almost everything I've read on domestic discipline, spanking, etc. has left me cold. I could never be the kind of woman that would willingly crawl across her man's knee—much less *ask* for a spanking. I have no doubt that there are times when my demeanor would definitely benefit from receiving one, but it's at those times that I would be least likely to submit to one. I can't imagine ever calling someone "Master". I know there are those out there that could, and would want to—but I'm not one of them. While I respect their desire to do so, I know I couldn't do it, myself, without cracking up!

What I can see (what I hope to see, someday) is the man that can (gently, but resolutely!) get me to the point where I can say "Yes, I see your point" or "I'm sorry, I was wrong" without feeling like I'm betraying my strong, independent side by doing so.

Again, thanks. I now have a term I can identify with. A term I'm -comfortable- identifying with.

Thanks, also, for the ray of hope you've given me. It's nice to know there are men out there that value a strong-willed, independent woman. It's nice to know that there are men that don't think in such black-and-white terms as "dom" or "sub". Is there a name (or classification) for the kind of man you see yourself as?

Comment on the Resistant Woman

Dear Eric,

Finally, a man that understands me.

Thank you for writing your article. Here am I just figuring things out, and your article helped me.

Men that want a "resistant" woman

Ok, Eric I agree you wrote a wonderful article and all of us like minded ladies agree on it. It has been a few years since you did so and I hope you have found that “resistant” woman you desire. Having said that, I have a question for all us strong “resistant” women. Why are there so many of us still looking for the man like Eric? What has happened to those that think like him? Are they a minority? Are they just too shy or cynical to seek us out? Do they live in herds on the Serengeti? Where are they?

The only ones (other than the rare ones here that actually seem to know how to type a few words together and have the courage to let the other guys know they can) that I seem to find are those that think the world revolve around them alone. I see these guys a dime a dozen everywhere I go. Where are the truly strong ones? Why do they not speak up? Is it a taboo for the single ones to admit they might like this too? I hope not. Yes, Eric and the other men who give us a rare glimpse into the strong male psyche give women like us hope for others.

I am writing this in challenge to the other men that may be holding back, the “fringe lurkers” that read but never give. Please let us know you still are here and tell us what you are thinking. It is you men that make this site one of the most fascinating I have ever come across. It puts the “guy side” into perspective for me and makes sense of the sometimes confusing signals you men give. I would like to hear more from you all because you tell it with honesty and even if I do not always agree with what you say, it makes me pause and wonder. I wonder if my beliefs might be wrong or conceited. Perhaps I have not been so open to all things as I had thought. I need your side of a discussion to make sense of mine. I tend to speak my mind anyway and the Internet has given me a “captive” audience as it were. I enjoy the banter and feedback and if a few of you more timid lurkers would join in, I think you would find it would help clear up things for you also. So I challenge you (in that “resistant” woman sort of way) to answer it. Tell us how you feel and let us know that we strong women are not drowning you strong men with our sheer numbers.

Libby

Cynical? Possibly, Among Other Things

--)
What has happened to those that think like him? Are they a minority?
Are they just too shy or cynical to seek us out?
(--

Personally, I am quite cynical, since most of the women I meet are
"fish needs a bicycle" feminist types. That, or the woman I meet may
be ideal except for the fact that she may live far away from me, and I
don't do long distance.

--)
Is it a taboo for the single ones to admit they might like this too? I
hope not.
(--

Taboo? Not for me. I'm quite up-front about what I want, and that is
generally a turn-off for the woman I happen to be talking to. Not that
I mind, since it is all part of the selection process. If she can't be
happy with me, I most CERTAINLY can't be happy with her. I'd rather
get that out in the open and out of the way rather than waste my time
with someone who is incompatible with me.

Mike Starre

Resistant Women

Libby, I do agree with you on that, just as much as I understand Mike's point. I am not a feminist type of woman, on the opposite, rather old-fashioned when it comes to relationships between men and women, but I know many women that would not at all agree with me.

Now to my problem, I am a successful manager in a male dominated industry, good-looking as well (do not want to brag, this is just to point out THIS major obstacle) which requires a certain "professionality" and "coolness" to be respected and acknowledged.

Unfortunately, most men are immediately intimidated if a woman is successful in her job. They don't even bother to look any further, she MUST be a feminist.

It was never my goal to end in management... it just happened that they offered me the job. Also I'm curious and love to learn about the world and study. But when it comes to choosing friends and a potential partner, degrees mean nothing. I hold a few, but when I look at people it is the people I see, with all their qualities. My friends come from all different backgrounds and educational levels. Frankly speaking I'd prefer a woodworker from Canada to any Director, CEO or whatever I encounter in my work life.

So I often think it is such a pity, if a man does not dare to step up and show some interest. As I said, I'm old-fashioned, I do still expect the man to be the first to show interest (even if it is just with a smile or longer eye-contact).

As to the selection process mentioned, I apply this just alike: if a man does not have the self-esteem, sovereignty, will power, courage and determination to go after what he wants, then he is definitively not right for me. I cannot tolerate/respect a partner that is softer and weaker in will power than I am. I want somebody who is more dominant than I am and thus not easily put of by a little resistance. This resistance is there in place to see how persistent he is.

Who values an easy victory?? It is the electricity and the game that is exciting, the measuring of will power, the decision to give in or not...

Lana

So not a feminist...

Lana, I hear you. I too find the hunt by a man to be exciting. And like you, have been disappointed that the truly worthy ones will not begin the hunt. They seem to be willing to just sit back and wait for us to find them, then have the gall to complain because we are not doing it right. I freely admit I have not the slightest idea why they would expect us to do this. Maybe if I did, I could help us all find the perfect men we are searching for.

I have been in management in the past, except as a nurse, the system tends to be a good ol’ girl one instead of a male oriented one. Part of my problem dealing with it is I do not play well with others all the time, especially back-stabbing ambitious women. I have also worked with the type of men you have described that are intimidated by strong women who are very honest, to the point of brute bluntness, that know what they want and are not afraid to articulate it. Even some of those elusive alpha men seem to have this problem with strong women. I personally find this very frustrating. Just because we are strong, they have already decided we cannot possibly want a Taken In Hand relationship. In fact, most of us want exactly that. We have to be so strong in our professional lives, most of us prefer to defer that responsibility to our men in our personal ones.

As for your comment about woodworkers and CEO’s, I like power brokers just as much as men that love to work with their hands. Both have much to offer women and I hope you do not judge these men as dead ends just because you only see them in the work setting. Many times what they do and say at work is just as programmed as what we may do, something that has been dictated by society and company policy. These men may truly be aggressive outside of work, but fear the reprisals of accusations of harassment. And yes degrees mean nothing to personality types. My ex is a perfect example of this.

I agree that if a man has a weaker will than mine, we are not going to be able to make a relationship work. I have strong will and fierce passions in all my areas of life and I will need a man that is just that strong to help control them. A relationship with me is not going to be a completely peaceful one, but if the right man comes along, it is possible. How do we find men like this? I haven’t the foggiest idea. If you discover the secret, please share it. The men aren’t telling….

Libby

re: why don't strong men approach women

"Lana, I hear you. I too find the hunt by a man to be exciting. And like you, have been disappointed that the truly worthy ones will not begin the hunt. They seem to be willing to just sit back and wait for us to find them, then have the gall to complain because we are not doing it right. I freely admit I have not the slightest idea why they would expect us to do this. Maybe if I did, I could help us all find the perfect men we are searching for."

Not sure what sort of situations you're talking about specifically, but I can venture a guess for other men based on my own experience. If other confident men are like me, then if they've been dating for a few years, they've had so many useless battles with "tough grrrls" that they lose a lot of the motivation to make that move, feeling like it's pointless to start down that road again. Just as most men are cowards, most women can't tell the difference between being strong/resistant and just being a bitch. There is a gigantic difference between the seduction game and petty power games, but most women confuse the two just as they think being a bitch and being truly strong are the same thing. It's the female equivalent of the frat boy who starts fights out of insecurity to prove his strength. Every real tough guy I've ever met and every really strong woman I've ever met tend to avoid fights and arguments.

I've dealt with so many women's nasty behavior out of an insecure need to prove their "strength" that I often feel like sitting it out, even if an attractive woman is looking my way. Just as it's hard for resistant women to find a man strong enough for them, it's equally difficult for such men to find truly resistant women and not just overgrown little girls who instigate confrontations out of insecurity. I've often been less than responsive to women out of reluctance to spin the wheel again on what seem like bad odds. Why waste the time, energy, and effort? A strong man is strong enough to be alone and not have to constantly pursue women to boost his ego.

But after much thought, I've decided that the whole thing is that you have to stay in the game, you have to play to win, so to speak, and I'll never meet the one I'm looking for if I don't keep up the effort. And most of that "tough grrrl" bs comes out after a few dates anyways, so it's not that much of an investment or a loss.

As for suggestions, the only thing I can think of to suggest is if you find yourself attracted to someone, if he does look your way there's nothing wrong with starting a conversation. Don't judge a man's strength or will by whether or not he walks up to you, he might be making a calculated decision actually BASED on his strength of will. And even then, living in a major city, I've encountered women checking me out in many public places that I would feel awkward starting a conversation, and since I don't want to be "that guy," it would make it a lot easier if a woman would start a conversation, both to let me know she's interested and to avoid a failed pick-up attempt at, say, a bookstore that would embarrass both of us. And remember, it IS scary for us to walk up and talk to you. The reason only assholes approach women is because they're the only ones who don't care what people think of them. Even a strong man, maybe even especially a strong man, has pride, and sometimes I may calculate that it's not worth the risk of a girl being nasty to me in public.

I will say though, that if you're talking about men you've talked to and expressed interest in, if men in those situations are unwilling to make a move, then either they're not attracted to you or they have something holding them back, and if they can't make a move after you've made it easy for them by showing interest, then either you're not their type or they're somewhat on the weak side and your judgment is correct, they're not really what you're looking for.

Approaching women

Lewis,
YOU TOOK THE WORDS RIGHT OUT OF MY MOUTH. I have often been frustrated by this dilemma. But then I use to be afraid of strong men. Until I learned that I wanted a confident man who was strong. So now that I have read your post, I realize that I CAN be assertive without overstepping my bounds.
Thanks again.
Cheryl

Why the women won't approach you either

Lewis I think you hit the nail on the head. There is a vast difference in what people think the definition of a “strong” woman should be. I too have seen many women that are bullies and use bitch behaviors to pass themselves off as a strong woman. That could not be the farthest thing from the truth. You are correct in that the truly strong will find a way to use their resources to negotiate a win if there is confrontation. We use intelligence and common sense instead of brute force and ignorance to make our points and will debate, not argue them. The women that use the B attitude are the ones with deep fear inside them. It is a defensive, protective behavior that they have learned and use it to bolster their courage. They think by being this sort of character they will be seen as too strong to hurt. Perhaps in places like gang ruled streets this might actually be true. There it is all about attitude and the more you have the higher your standing. You and I would stick out like sore thumbs in that environment.

Unfortunately, many people mistake the more pacifistic attitudes that we tend towards to be a sign of weakness. They think we are cowards, trying to talk our way out of a fight. The opposite is the truth. We can see other options they have not considered and are intelligent enough to seek them, seeing win-win solutions in an otherwise no win situation. It is not until we are cornered that we fight and by then it is far too late for those that do so to us. We all have deep courage and the strength to know when to struggle and when to negotiate. People that pretend to be like us, do not have this understanding and make wrong choices, using bluff and intimidation in trying to win at all costs.

Just as it's hard for resistant women to find a man strong enough for them, it's equally difficult for such men to find truly resistant women and not just overgrown little girls who instigate confrontations out of insecurity.

I can understand you frustration over this. I see it too often in places like bars (the few times I have been to one) and all I can do is sit and shake my head in dismay. I see the men around them and how they react and I know women feel the same way about the obnoxious loud-mouth that is constantly bragging on something. And I definitely understand why you would rather be alone and lonely than put up with that. I would not do so either. In fact, it is because of that sort of behavior in men that I decide to do the online dating thing. It gave me a way to filter through those that I did not want to deal with. You are right that you can never win a game if you never play. It is kind of like winning the lottery. If you never buy a ticket, you will never do so. I am glad to see you have not given up on it yet.

I find it interesting that you and other strong men would not be willing to start a conversation in public. I have never been rude to a man in public except for twice and both times it was when the man was highly inappropriate to me. If I notice you watching me, I would give you a smile as a reply to your interest. But if you did nothing further that is where it would stay. Strong women are just as hesitant to initiate this as you are. We have been burned by being forward far more times than you men have and it will be a rare day when I will start a conversation in such a situation.

Using your example of a bookstore, if you were watching me and I noticed (and trust me I always notice if a powerful person is paying attention to me. It has saved my life more than once) I would make a judgment on what type of person you were and if I felt safe, would give you an open friendly smile. It is all the encouragement you will ever get from me. At this point it is up to you to determine if you wish to get closer. Ask me about a book you see in my hands, or if I know where something is located. Make it simple and I will be certain to speak with you.

I speak with strangers all the time in very public places. In fact it used to baffle my sons that a perfect stranger would come to me to talk in the produce section all the time. I tried to explain that it is because when I look them in the eye and smile, I am acknowledging that I see them and it is alright to speak to me. Most will do so. They sense that I am a “safe” person to speak with even if it is for just a few moments.

If however, I notice you watching me and you do not respond to my smile, but instead continue to just watch, I will rethink my feeling that you are a “safe” person. I will immediately head for the nearest register and get out of the store as quickly as possible. In fact, I will not return to that place for several weeks because I do not wish to chance running into you. Men that do that sort of behavior are very dangerous many times and you have now been dumped in with them. No matter what the circumstances, should we bump into each other again, I will avoid you.

As for your comment about pride, we have it too. It can be your first test by women like me to see if you have the courage to pursue me enough to start a conversation. It is not easy to take that first step, take the risk of being embarrassed if a woman is not what you expected. But do so you must with women like me. We will give you an encouraging look or smile to signal that we would welcome your attention. You need to be observant and watch for it. And remember it is scary on our side of it too. A strong man can easily be mistaken for a dangerous one. Sometimes it is hard to see the difference and as a woman the last thing I would want to do is encourage a dangerous man to come closer

A wall too high?

Mike, you definitely need to get out more. I don’t know what you expect from a woman, but the truth is that most of us freely admit we are not now, nor have we ever been a “feminist type”. It is truly a shame that you cannot find the right woman for you. The statement you made “…the woman I meet may be ideal except for the fact that she may live far away from me, and I don’t do long distance” makes me believe the reason you are having problems is being a bit unbending. Just because a woman lives a long way away, does not mean she will always do so. If given a reason to move, I think many of us “ideal” women would be willing to try to find a way for us to be closer in distance but there has to be some reason to do so. We have to be given some reason to believe the effort and expense (both professionally and personally) is worth it. To feel this, the man has to be willing to bend a bit. I have the feeling, cynic that you appear to be, you have been the one that bent too far in previous relationships and now refuse to do so again. It might be understandable, but not acceptable to the women you are seeing. If you have been the one that moved then was given a broken heart, maybe you can understand why women won’t be willing to just uproot to be close to a man that is just barely above being a total stranger. It is not safe and it is not smart. Relationship is a condition that needs both people to be willing to discuss, negotiate and set the guidelines in it. That means you have to be willing to give as well as take. I do not say this as an attack on you personally, just a reflection of something that recently happened in a long distance relationship to me.

I am exactly like you in that I too am very up front about who and what I am. I do not like games, do not play them, have walked away from my long marriage because of them. I am not turned off when a man is brutally honest about who he is and what he wants. I find it refreshing that some of you can still be so. But how can you tell in the very early stages of what might be a long distance relationship that she “…can’t be happy with me…”? I have been wrong about my feelings about a man in the past, going both directions, but until you spend time together, you can really never know a person. Sorry, this is starting to sound like I am scolding you and that is not my intention. What I am trying to say is you have evidently put up a very high wall that most women may not be able to get over. Perhaps you should peek over it once in a while to see what is there? You might just be surprised.

Re: A Wall Too High

--)
Mike, you definitely need to get out more.
(--

OK, you are probably right. But "getting out" requires the drive to
do so, and I feel the drive to do so is rapidly diminishing in me.

--)
I don't know what you expect from a woman, but the truth is that most
of us freely admit we are not now, nor have we ever been a "feminist
type".
(--

Granted, but this seems to apply ONLY to YOU and those who frequent
this forum. The women **I** meet, while VERY attractive at the onset,
gradually become ugly when I learn of their personalities. They are
NOT compatible with me or my desires.

--)
It is truly a shame that you cannot find the right woman for you. The
statement you made "...the woman I meet may be ideal except for the
fact that she may live far away from me, and I don't do long distance"
makes me believe the reason you are having problems is being a bit
unbending.
(--

This may be true. I am QUITE unbending when it comes to certain
compatibility and access requirements. Distance limits access to an
unacceptable degree.

--)
Just because a woman lives a long way away, does not
mean she will always do so. If given a reason to move,
(--

"Long Distance" Women have RARELY given me the desire to exercise the
patience required to allow them the time to make the choice. In
concrete terms, there have been only TWO. The first one was willing,
but a lack of communication on my part combined with bad timing ended
that possibility. She is now married to someone else. My fault, I
REALLY screwed that one up. The second was NOT quite so willing to
relocate, since she had a job she wasn't willing to give up. She
wasn't even willing to modify her working hours to accommodate my
desires. Had she been willing to AT LEAST alter her hours, I MAY have
relocated to spend some time with her. But that was not to be.

--)
I think many of us "ideal" women would be willing to try to find a way
for us to be closer in distance but there has to be some reason to do
so.
(--

There was reason and desire in the first woman, but lack of proper and
honest communication on my part burned that bridge. The second woman
found my desires and demands to be too excessive.

--)
We have to be given some reason to believe the effort and expense
(both professionally and personally) is worth it.
(--

I understand that. Other than the two women I mentioned, though, no
other has motivated me enough to show such reason. Too demanding? Yes,
I am, because I am searching for the LAST relationship of my ENTIRE
life. I have NO desire for a flash in the pan, over in a few months or
even a few years, and then have to search for another. I did enough
bed-hopping in my twenties and got bored with it. I want someone with
whom I can have a STABLE, LOVING, and LIFELONG relationship.

Concerning the best relationship I ever personally observed, a man's
wife died after nearly 50 years of marriage. He was so distraught that
he had a heart attack and died within a short few HOURS of the death
of his wife. I want to go just like he did. Have a passionate
fulfilling marriage and then kick off when it ends. I don't think that
is too much to ask.

--)
To feel this, the man has to be willing to bend a bit. I have the
feeling, cynic that you appear to be, you have been the one that bent
too far in previous relationships and now refuse to do so again.
(--

And with that assumption you have hit the nail SQUARELY on the head. I
can't deny this accusation.

--)
If you have been the one that moved then was given a broken heart,
(--

I have never relocated for any woman and none have ever relocated for
me. I am STRICTLY "locals only". I don't do long distance, although I
have been TEMPTED to do so twice, as I have already stated.

--)
maybe you can understand why women won't be willing to just uproot to
be close to a man that is just barely above being a total stranger.
(--

I have never demanded or expected this. I have never even REQUESTED
such a consideration. The first woman mentioned above IMPLIED such a
possibility, but my double-mindedness at the time precluded such an
event.

--)
you have to be willing to give as well as take. I do not say this as
an attack on you personally,
(--

I have no reason to argue this point, and I FULLY realize your
response to me is not an attack.

--)
how can you tell in the very early stages of what might be a long
distance relationship that she "...can't be happy with me..."?
(--

I can't tell, so I choose not to bother with the problem. I had two
possibilities and they both fell flat. Neither was the fault of the
woman. The first one can hand the blame to me.

--)
I have been wrong about my feelings about a man in the past, going
both directions, but until you spend time together, you can really
never know a person.
(--

That is simply a foregone conclusion, presumably accepted by all. This
is why I choose to pursue a relationship ONLY with a LOCAL woman, so I
CAN spend as much time with her as I wish.

--)
Sorry, this is starting to sound like I am scolding you and that is
not my intention.
(--

Perception is key to communication, and you have communicated quite
well. I don't view your post as "scolding".

--)
What I am trying to say is you have evidently put up a very high wall
that most women may not be able to get over. Perhaps you should peek
over it once in a while to see what is there? You might just be
surprised.
(--

I DO take a peek once in a while. One day, as you say, I just MAY be
surprised. The first woman WAS **DEFINITELY** a surprise to me. The
disappointment in her case was in the way I handled the encounter. It
was rank stupidity on my part.

Mike Starre

Keep Peeking....

Mike, I am sorry about your relationships. It sounds somewhat like my own in the recent past. In my field, I can be more mobile in selecting places to work. I am always looking at new and different places to do so and many times work as a traveler to satisfy my curiosity. I have always understood that it is very difficult to maintain a long distance relationship, but sometimes it is necessary in order to find love. My last one lived in Louisiana and we were 14 hours apart. We did quite well with emails and phone calls, but as it progressed I had made the decision if he wished to further things, I would find work closer to him. It was something we had discussed on the onset to set up rules for our relationship and being closer to each other was one of them. It was far simpler for me to move than he, so I had agreed to think about it. Needless to say, that relationship ended when someone I thought was a friend ruined it. But it has not yet stopped me from looking. I do not know how long you have been searching, but I have just really started so I cannot say I know what you are feeling or thinking. I just hate seeing someone as young as you give up so early in your life.

Warmest regards

Libby

re: where are the strong men?

To Libby, Lana, and other women with similar questions, as a strong man myself, I have to give my opinion, with great sympathy, that I don't think there are many around. I went to very prestigious schools and have had financial ups and downs, but my position in my relationships has never changed or depended on my circumstances at the moment because of my intrinsic [but hard-earned] confidence in myself and my will to keep pushing on. I've found though, as I've passed through great schools and great jobs, and have had female friends in those places, that very few men respond well to strong women, not even, perhaps ESPECIALLY not, men who are successful in their careers and financially. The conclusion I've come to is this: almost all men are cowards.

I've had many female friends and acquaintances who have great degrees and careers, or, even without any "pedigree," have very high caliber intellect, character, and strength. I've learned in life that these are the women who MOST need a strong man, in fact, they need STRONGER and BETTER men than most women, because their men need to have the intelligence and emotional sensitivity to know when to be gentle, but the strength and courage to be in charge when it matters in a relationship and in life in general. And everything I've learned about women has taught me that, when it comes down to it, they want a man they can trust to be in charge. Unfortunately, there are few men who you can trust to be in charge at all, let alone to the degree really strong women need.

What these female friends of mine have consistently told me is that when they mention their degrees, their success, or just show their wonderful, powerful, feminine personalities, most men shrink from them, even "CEO/executive/wealthy types."

I think that first, people need to realize that career success and personal courage are not really even correlated. A person's career success can be attributed to ass-kissing, a slavish, unquestioning work ethic, or just robotic "follow the leader to Wall Street" type thinking. While it CAN indicate strength of character, it far from NECESSARILY does. A man may work 100 hours a week because he's afraid of disappointing his parents who paid for his ivy-league degree. That's hardly indicative of real, deep-down strength.

So success or career/social position really has no real relation to, for lack of a better way to say it, being a "real man." The 20 year old privates in Afghanistan are more man than most of the soft, wealthy men in suits I've met in my life, no matter how many hours they slaved away for Goldman etc. Their strength is mostly pretense and facade, a playground tactic to intimidate people who can't see through them.

And just on pure speculation about other people's psychology, that's why I think "successful" men are often the most intimidated by actually strong women...such women's actual strength puts the lie to their pretend strength. What can they brag or puff up about if their woman went to the same or better schools, has an equal or better job, makes the same or better money? How can they pretend to be "real men" if their women do anything other than bat their eyes at them and say "honey, you're so smart and strong, I could NEVER do what you do"...?

I remember how a doctor I briefly dated told me how whenever she tells a man what she does for a living, he disappears in a puff of smoke and how her and the other female doctors pretend they're teachers or flight attendants if they want to talk to men.

Of course, it's not just men in suits who are cowards, it's "men generally." I don't know enough to say if it's feminism, I certainly think that the "fish needs a bicycle" idea of faux female strength and pretend self-sufficiency has made a lot of women nasty to be around and beaten most men into pansy little fruitcakes. Btw, I'm an artist, by no means Charles Bronson, I'm just saying that most men these days cower before women, their bosses, their parents, or whoever, and I do not, which, while I think it's unexceptional, separates me from at least 90% of men from what I can tell.

Anyways, I truly feel for strong women who need very strong men. My friends are like me, but there isn't any real common trait, profession, affinity, or social aspect between us other than just intelligence and strength and a tendency to hang around other guys who aren't...well, you know the word.

I'd say just keep looking. You never know what a real man may be wearing or doing for a living, or where he may be living or hanging out. But in general, I'd say that over 90% of men are cowards who are either

a) pretend tough guys too weak to handle to push-back of a strong woman, who need a woman who makes less, is less intelligent, has less of a career to make him feel like a man, to feel strong or

b) sissies who make themselves the slaves of their wives and girlfriends, fawn about how great their girls are and how lowly and unworthy of their women they are.

And I think that's most men. (a) tends to be the conservative brand of male cowardice and (b) tends to be the liberal brand. They are both equally unpalatable.

Now, maybe you girls can tell me where I can find a woman who is TRULY strong and not just putting up a facade to avoid getting hurt and be "appropriately tough" for our post-feminist age...? ;-) I find myself repeatedly meeting women who are intrinsically strong but lack that final necessary step, to be able to admit that what they really want in a man. But maybe that's a topic for another blog posting...

Sorry this is so long, I just have real problems with the way men are afraid to be men and women are afraid to admit they want a strong man who can be in charge. But I don't want a return to the bad old days where men could abuse women, couldn't talk about emotions, and were basically insensate logs either. I just want people to be honest about what they want and are capable of and to have the nerve to take control of their own lives, whatever that means. I don't think a man has to choose between being strong and being sensitive and a woman shouldn't have to settle for choosing between a braggart or a wimp. It's a sad state of affairs.

re: successful men

As a follow up to my comment on "where are the strong men," I'd say you ladies should ask yourself a few questions when you meet or lust after a successful man. Some samples include:

1. "How self-made is he, how much did he carve his own path v. how much is he just following the path his family laid out for him?"

I respect the work ethic of, say, guys on Wall Street, but that's about the only thing I respect for most of the ones I've met. And most of them had that path laid out in front of them by their parents, the schools they put them in, the examples they showed them, the connections they passed onto them, the expectations they put on them etc. So you should ask yourself if he truly followed his heart and passion, or if he just did what was expected of him. If it's the latter, then while he may or may not be a nice guy, it's far less likely that he's a man of real inner strength and fortitude.

2. "Is his success based on passion for what he does, a drive to shape his own life and work to get what makes him happy, or is it based on a need to prove himself? Is his success based on strength or insecurity?"

While it can take some time and insight to judge, if it seems like the latter, then he's not the sort of man you're looking for.

Ladies, don't fall prey to the "princess" fantasy. Don't think a rich, pedigreed prince is going to be the kind of man you need. Look beyond the money, position, and pedigree to the man's real, underlying character, what got him there, and only then will you be able to tell if he's a man or an insecure little boy with a bank account.

Male Voice (comment for Lewis)

Lewis, I have enjoyed your posts on this thread and I hope many women will read them. Women need a refresher course in the actualities as experienced by a self-possessed man. I largely concur with your diagnosis of male cowardice, with the proviso that cowardice is not reserved to male. Little is more inspiring than a spirited, challenging woman. This can be done sweetly and authentically from the heart in a feminine manner, or it can be jumped up and aped in second-hand trappings of attitude culled from Cosmo and Sex in the City. The reality is that unattached male is in a buyer's market. To not waste his time he cultivates very efficient ninny filters. Many of us are sick to death of the endless contentiousness and wrangling. A man keeps hands off out of contempt when he sees hints of this. Male cowardice I attribute to the inanities of modern culture and education. In this regard a working man not burdened with the loonies of college education is at significant advantage of not having abandoned his common sense and native powers. More deeply, I see male cowardice as a function of male uncertainty. Uncertainty in the appropriateness of his native initiative and direct approach and, therefore, uncertainty in the natural biological vitality and potency of his native biosexuality. Lewis, you should write some articles. Your male voice might be welcomed here.

VelvetHammer

Ninny filter?

VelvetHammer as always your words are a breeze of fresh air. I am still laughing at much of what you wrote. “…A refresher course in the actualities as experienced by a self-possessed man” indeed. It is a two way street and I agree that women need to see a man’s perspective on a situation to understand what is going on in his head. In regards to men not being the only cowards, I would suggest that you will see this in a woman when she displays that “clingy” behavior all men seem to despise.

Uncertainty causes fear which in turn creates the very behaviors you males hate. Cowardice or uncertainty, it does not matter. The result will be the same.

Little is more inspiring than a spirited, challenging woman. This can be done sweetly and authentically from the heart in a feminine manner, or it can be jumped up and aped in second-hand trappings of attitude culled from Cosmo and Sex in the City.

Now here is where I might disagree. I see nothing equivocal between a “…spirited, challenging woman” and “…jumped up and aped in second-hand trappings of attitude culled from Cosmo and Sex in the City”. Unless by spirited you mean temperamental and challenging you mean bitchy. I do not read Cosmo so I cannot comment on it. But I have seen a few episodes of Sex in the City (forced on me by my girlfriend when she wanted to do a chic flick thing) and I find the behaviors of the main characters to be degrading and insulting. They have created four players but instead of men they are women and they are like a bunch of randy high school boys, bragging on their conquests in sex. I have never understood the attraction of that show for women. But in no way would I ever think of these women as being the kind of strong woman that Lewis was describing. I know you said “aping” but even that is not so. They are not even close to hitting the mark there on that show. And how would a man like yourself even consider that description as being “inspiring”? I would think any attempt at copying a strong woman by doing the things you mentioned would make you run in the opposite direction. I differ from what you are implying in that I do not see these two types as being an either/or, but as a good/bad.

However, I LMAO over the “ninny filter”. I called it the idiot factor with men. Men and women do much of the same sorts of things to filter through all the nonsense. My time is just as precious as your own, sir and I will thank you not to waste it. Sorry, could not resist pulling your tail a bit. I understand what your reply was about and I agree and validate most of it. That one suggestion that the women of Sex in the City were “spirited, challenging women” I have to utterly disagree with. I realize it is a comedy but I still find the whole idea of their premise to be very insulting to women like me. Many men believe that strong women are just like them and it has now made our search for a fitting mate just that much harder. We now have yet another stigma to overcome and prove ourselves not the shallow bitches those actresses portray.

Of Ninnies and Actresses

Miss Libby, as a throroughly Darwinian monkey-boy, I am used to having my tail pulled. I understand as well mother nature's meanings in the linkage of red-bottomed monkey-girls and what someone who is not a gentleman might refer to as "being in heat."

Pardon any unclarity in my allusion to girls of pop media celebrity. My intention was to speak of those girls dyslogistically (I am always astonished that folks do not understand my plain anglo-latin.) And, as a New England fellow, not from Olden England, I use as male complementary term to "ninny", not "idiot", but rather "peckerhead".

Briefly, a ninny is not an earth girl. She is disconnected from her actual womanly needs, possibly through actressing, possibly through some "spirit"/body splitting, possibly because she gets off more on spinning tales to her girlfriends than in attending, mercy!, to her carnal needs. Spontaneity and authenticity, any cat or dog or horse can easily sniff it out, and so can an attentive man. Mammalian matters, as does the fact that we are African ape/primate.

I disagree that the vulgarity of pop culture makes your task more difficult. You will stand out inevitably as sweet and sassy from the crowd of militantly attitudinized brassy. I'll let you in on a male secret: "hotties" are not. They have spent far too much time rehearsing before the mirror and in self-indulgent solo runs to have the focus and skills of attention needed to be present to a living breathing man in the flesh.

I find Sex in the City particularly unfortunate, though I've not much viewed this show (My brother, a gay man, watches it. To my understanding the scripts are written by gay men). Reason one: Sarah Jessica Parker was, in the freshness of her youth, the classic all-American girl. Earnest, innocent, sweet, eager and curious to learn the big girl stuff. I reference Girls Just Want To Have Fun. To view her now as a slut-worn street-smart sociologically nogginizing princess is to see re-enactment on the girl side of the muck-sliding career of John Wayne finishing off as the shit-faced drunk Rooster Cogburn. There is logic to this, but it ain't pretty. Reason Two: Astonishingly, Kim Cattrel, with her husband (who I know is not named Mr. Cattrell), has written a ball-park accurate book about some of the loving actualities of hetero sex.

The media images are fake, phony, baloney. I include in this almost all of what is peddled as porn. I can think of only one sequence that beautifully depicts the deep emotional-sexual shakeup realities of encounter with a man who knows what he is doing, and that is the aftermath train sequence of Diane Lane reliving the sensual wake-up she has endured in Unfaithful. Now there's an earth girl who has had some fun. (My mention of this film should not be taken as endorsement of other than faithfully monogomous, sexually exclusive intimacy.)

I hope you will trust that a strong man will be on the lookout for the strongest woman he can find. He will need the challenge and will adore you for it. If you want the best out of a man, dare him to find out how to handle you. It is for him to discover your vulnerabilities.

This should be the most active thread on the forum. It is not. This surprises me.

VelvetHammer

Honesty is the key...

I’m glad to hear more men are now sounding off here. Thank you for your postings Lewis. It is easy to see you are most definitely the type of man we “stronger” women are searching for. I was startled to hear you speak of the way even a strong man might avoid contact for fear of being mistaken as “one of those guys”. It never dawned on me that it would be a concern. I do not mean this in a derogatory way, just that the thought literally never drifted through my brain. It does make perfect sense now. I have seen many men that I could immediately tell were like you and your friends hesitate in situations where I thought they should have stepped forward and mislabeled them. I now see them in a different light and wonder what wonderful friends I might have missed out on because I did not read the situation correctly.

I have to admit having grown up with a father that was not only a professional and successful businessman, but a dominant man, I too have a similar disdain and dislike of the corporate types you have described. Women like me can usually sense them the first time we lay eyes on them and seldom will give them more than the time of day. It is an instant turn off for us to hear the false vibrato in their words and peacocking, trying to impress us. It is a continuous wonder to me why these me even approach women such as myself. We are so far from the type of women they are looking for we are almost from another planet. Maybe they are into self-flagellation? Only a masochist would risk bragging to someone like me that is as likely to use his own words against him simply to embarrass him as to walk away in disgust.

As you have pointed out, strong men as well as strong women are from all walks of life and nationalities. The one thing I think you will find we all agree on is that none of us look at the trappings of society, (wealth, social standing, pedigree, occupation, etc.) as important. We can see to the soul and it is the strengths, talents, and purity of that soul that we search for. All else is esoteric and we seek substance. We know well our own in these things and search for someone that is complimentary, accepts the good and sees the bad as just another beautiful part of a person’s soul.

I find myself repeatedly meeting women who are intrinsically strong but lack that final necessary step, to be able to admit that what they really want in a man.

I think that those of us that can admit it are what many of us here at Taken In Hand think of as an Alpha personality type. I think the difference you may see is as in the situations of your physician friend. She and her friends would pretend to be something else so they did not frighten off the men they were trying to meet. Women like myself (and yes I do think of myself as an Alpha) would never do that. It is not to say what she does is wrong, it may well be the right thing for her and I wish her well. I am saying that women like myself instinctively know that to try to hide anything about ourselves is the wrong way to go.

For one thing most men like yourself would see the deceit in a heartbeat. A lie is not a good start to building trust in a relationship. If a man does not have the strength of character to accept me as I am, and the courage to go after it, then we are not compatible. I would need someone that can control the strongest parts of me and if I pretend I am something else how would I ever know? Most women like me are not into playing the types of games other women do. We will not pretend to be something we are not simply to attract men. We are fairly secure in who and what we are and look for men that accept us as that. I am not saying we will not play the part of a seductress or become a playmate with you.

Case in point I just returned from a lovely trip in which I met a gentleman for dinner. I do not usually do the makeup thing other than eye makeup but I went with full makeup and semiformal attire. He took me to a very exclusive restaurant and seemed to be having a grand time showing me off. This man is an extremely successful businessman, is a true dominant and Alpha. We met on line and I had posted what I called my fat picture. He immediately saw through it and insisted on meeting me in person. The first time he laid eyes on me I had not slept in nearly 30 hours, was just arriving to NYC and had not the tiniest bit of makeup on. I truly looked my worst. Yet he did not see any of that. He saw the woman under all the plainness. He calls it reading between the lines and as he told me, he is extremely good at this and is one of the reasons I suspect he is so successful.

Ok that is me rambling again. Anyway, the point I am making here is that in no way did I change myself, other than physical appearance for our date. I was still the same self-assured, highly alpha female that is in control at all times. An Alpha will spot another in moments and if you ever move past one, it can literally make the hair on the back of your neck raise. It is a presence of being and impossible to hide. Now what do you suppose would have happened on my date if I had led him to believe I was a much more subdued, submissive female and then we met face to face. There would have been instant distrust and that would have been the end of any hopes of making this become a long and lasting relationship. It never pays to pretend to be something you are not.

I think, Lewis that you will find women like me that have very strong personalities will always be honest about “…what they want and are capable of and to have the nerve to take control of their own lives…” We tend to be so honest sometimes it can be brutal. Not necessarily a good thing and as my friend told me, sometimes it is wiser to remain silent than say what is on our minds. But on the other hand we will never be dishonest about it either. We know that path leads to unhappiness and self-destruction.

Warmest regards,

Libby

re: re: where are the strong men?

It's not fair for anyone to claim that a man who does not want to be with a woman who has a successful career is not a strong man. Most good, strong men want the type of relationship described in the link below and they are far less likely to find it in a woman who is career minded. Is a doctor going to give up her practice to put the needs of her husband and family first? Most likely not and most men, the good, strong men you speak of are traditional men. Men who grow up with strong male role models and were taught integrity and character. They want to work hard for their wives and children and they want the love and care of their wives with no division. No split between them and work. That's what makes for a truly happy, fulfilling marriage. That's harmony. That is why women today say where are the good men. Those men found the women they want to be with or are searching for the one that shares their sentiment. And it is women like those in the story below that every man wants.

http://www.takeninhand.com/when.youve.seen.a.happy.marriage.with.your.ow...

I love the 'fight', but I want to lose

I really appreciate hearing this from the man's point of view. I am definitely "resistant"; I love the fight, but I want to lose. I don't think my husband likes the resistance, but he understands it and copes with it accordingly.

Your post reminds me of a song I love by Sheryl Crow called "Strong Enough," as she says, "Are you strong enough to be my man?" and later, "Are you man enough to be my man?"

Great post, Eric.

Seeking a resistant woman?

You seek resistance? I hope you find what you seek. Just please don't label her. Labels and generalizing seldom are accurate and you may miss out on your perfect match because of it all.

Glad for this

Eric,

Thank you so much for posting this. I have had a few relationships and "almost" relationships that ended because the man said I was "too wild", "too much to handle" or not submissive enough. I can be mouthy and I am very strong willed, but that's only because I feel the need to protect myself. I am very loving, but if I just lay myself down for every Tom, James, and Harry that comes along, I'd be totally used. Plus, I feel if a man really loved me and wanted to be with me, he'd work to keep me and make me his. If I just give it away and mindlessly submit, to me there's no way of knowing if he really wants that or if he's just taking it because I'm giving it to him.

Besides, the man is not always right, and while I like for my man to be in control, I still want him to be smart enough to know he may not always be the smartest. He should be willing to take a little lip back from me, not have me mindlessly controlled, blindly following him into any and everything. But if I get out of line in an extreme way, my man needs to be man enough to put me back in line.

Anyhoo, thanks again for posting this. It feels good to know I'm not a 'bad woman' or too out there like so many have said. I just need a man to step up to the plate. Hopefully, I'll meet him one day.

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