Very interesting topic you've started, boss. And it's really got me thinking (which, yes, probably means this will be long!). Where to start, though?

A quiet confidence is always more appealing to me than someone who is very obviously confident. The former suggests a comfort with it, the latter suggests the person is trying to hide something unpleasant - like a penchant for bullying. Assured assertiveness - by which I mean the quiet belief that what they ask for will happen if possible. Not being afraid to admit to having weakness, worries, fears - but without letting themselves be overwhelmed by them (most of the time, even the best person feels overwhelmed at times). Not being afraid to have a soft side, and a light-hearted side, not being afraid to have fun, not being afraid to laugh at themselves - taking yourself too seriously is offputting, at least for me. Not being afraid to show an interest in others.

I think all of these can be developed or brought out if the person is comfortable enough with themselves to do it - and/or willing to take the risk to change. And changing yourself is a big risk. The chances are, though, that most people will notice "something" different about you, and remark on things like how well and happy you seem (OK - basing this on a very small sample of people I know who've done it. About half a dozen or less), so like many things, once you've broken through the fear barrier, you find it'snot that scary after all.

I also think it can be turned off and on at will, or at least up and down according to need. B certainly can do that. He has a base-level of quiet confidence and assurance (which has grown since we slipped more into a Taken In Hand relationship), but it can become overwhelming at times - often in response to a situation that requires it. It seems, at least to me, a totally natural behaviour, and not "put on" (you know when you see some-one not getting their way in a shop and they run through all possible methods like they're trying on different clothes to see what will make them look big and important? Not at all like that). At that point - or at any point beyond it's base level really, I'm trying hard to retain composure.

It's a lot down to being comfortable with oneself, I think, or giving the appearance beyond superficial levels. And applied determination (ie knowing what to pursue and what to ignore).

And almost everythng Rudyard Kipling put down in the poem If.

It might be about realising that you've at last found your match - someone you can't get one over - and who won't neccesarily play weak just to let you.

And of course it might just be to do with pheremones ;-)

--

"There is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so" Hamlet, somewhere.

I belive that you are not born with the 'masculant' gift, but rather earn and grow on it through success and truth of self. Most men that I talk to are very unsure and clueless. But there are a few great few that make you lose your breath by hearing their authoritative voice. I have only met one man like this and I am now currently with him. The boys my age - I call them boys because they are young - are very inexperienced and I find no attraction to them whatsoever. No boy that I have met has had even a glint of the 'masculant' quality, this is one reason I find that you are not born with it. It moves you and makes you wish to please, that dangerous power of masculinity. You either have this quality or not. There is no middle ground.

I believe that some men do "fight" their way to the "top of the tree" and become Alpha Males like in the Animal Kingdom. I've known a few Alpha Males and they're the one who get the girls when their buddies fail. I'm pretty sure it's about dominance - the dominant Alpha Male can face down the Beta Males and gets what all the other guys can't. I believe there's an equivalent in the female of the species too: an Alpha Female. Alpha Females have that same dominant quality.

Mac and I have been together as a couple for 18 months. Before that we had a friendship stretching back over four years. Mac has this ability to take control of any situation and make everyone present obey Him. It is not always a conscious thing for everyone, but it still happens. I was always aware that He had a certain air about Him but it has only been recently that I have become aware that other women and men feel it too. He has always just felt that it was His natural right to take whatever He wanted. Not many people have ever tried to challenge Him and not because He is a bully, just because they seem to think it is His right too. He tends not to abuse this, though He often could, and I think that just gains Him more respect from the people around Him.

It affects me deeply. I have always wanted to be the life and breath of this Man from the first moment I met Him. I wanted to please Him. I wanted never to disappoint Him. I don't just mean a sexual attraction because at first it wasn't sexual, it just was. For a long time neither He nor I had a name for it, after a while it became my submission to Him though He still claims no dominance over me other than His natural right as my Lover, Protector, Friend and Provider. (What I call dominance, Mac prefers to call masculinity and what I call submissiveness, Mac calls femininity.)

When I thought about this topic, the following about Mac and His father came to mind.

Mac once told me a story about His dad, who was also the coach of Mac's rugby team while He was still in school. Mac's dad coached the team for many years, from the time they were little lads whose dads would dry behind their ears in the change rooms after games, until this particular time when they were 17. It was the end of the season and the boys had performed well, taking out the area championship as well as quite a few of the players being selected to play for the national school boys team.

The rugby club put on a celebratory dinner for them, the boys and their families. The beer was free and the club didn't stick to the rules of age when it came to drinking, the boys were their champions and so close to legal age after all.

So here were twenty 17 year olds, drinking themselves silly while their parents, siblings and grandparents looked on. Mac's dad was outside being interviewed by a local paper and had no clue what was going on inside.

It was announced that the buffet was ready and all of the 17 year olds grabbed plates and made a dash for the food, pushing and shoving each other, generally being 17-year-old boys with a little too much alcohol in their system. Before they actually got to the buffet Mac's dad walked in to the room and took once glance at what was happening and he said 'Right you lot, guests first.' Without protest or grumbling or reproach the boys turned around and walked back to the table and sat down.

There was a stunned silence from the guests. Mac's dad hadn't raised his voice, hadn't threatened them, hadn't sworn or ranted, he had just told them what to do and they had obeyed without complaint. For the rest of the night Mac said you overheard people saying things like 'How did he do that?' 'Wish I could get [insert name] to do the stuff I say.' 'He didn't even sound angry!'

I always loved this story because to me it showed the admiration these almost men had for Mac's dad. There would have been times over the years that they would not have agreed with the decisions that he made and times I am sure they had butted heads, but he had given them good guidance and they respected Mac's dad for it. So when he said guests first, they all turned back knowing that He was right.

Because of that story, I should not have been quite so surprised at what happened with Mac. I was though. It was a complete shock.

We have a group of friends that we have pretty much had for the last four and a half years. There is a basic core of us that are really good friends and then there are people who come and go and depending on the relationships they are in and such. The core of us try and get together for dinner at least once a month and the others that are around get an invite too and whoever shows up is there. It's a pretty informal thing and always lots of fun.

If Mac has been into the office, a friend will call past and drive me to the restaurant so that Mac doesn't need to drive out and pick me up. There is a fringe dweller that has been hanging around for a couple of months and he really gets on my nerves. His name is Robert. He once whined about not liking woman that NEED men, but refused to be drawn into a discussion on it and made me feel rather small with the way he spoke to me. I have pretty much avoided Robert since then but he happened to be there this night.

The situation that arose started out as a discussion once again on the strength of women that need men and it very quickly turned ugly and at that point I should have walked away. Instead I stood my ground and the rest of our friends joined in and there was some name calling and it was all really awful and I tried to back off but no one was listening and it looked like a discussion that one would see at the local football ground, not in our favourite place to eat.

At the height of it Robert called me a stupid slut and I thought that any second punches would be thrown and it was at that moment Mac walked in. Everyone started talking to Him and He ignored them all and looked directly at me.

'What is going on?' He said calmly and everyone fell silent and of course I started to jibber out some answer to defend my part in this.

'Well Robert started talking about women who need men being weak and I told him I need You but I am not weak...'

Mac held up His hand and I stopped.

'Why would you feel a need to defend our relationship to anyone let alone someone who obviously doesn't have a clue? You do not need to speak to Robert anymore, nor will you ever defend us again. Do you understand?' He said all this quite calmly, no anger, no frustration, no disappointment in His voice. He just stated it as fact.

I stood there with my head bowed, and felt very ashamed of my behaviour. I told Him I understood and that I was sorry. Much to my amazement, others around us apologised too. Mac announced that He was going to the bathroom and that when He came back, He would start His evening over. He kissed me on the cheek (a sign between us that all is forgiven) and He left.

The conversation slowly resumed in a much more normal manner and Robert was judiciously ignored. He said that he was leaving and no one tried to stop him and the room felt much lighter with him gone.

Mac came back bounding with His usual energy and the dinner turned out to be a lot of fun. There was lots of good conversation and much laughter and not one person mentioned Robert or what had happened again.

Mac had taken control of a room full of rowdy people without even trying.

I don't buy it. I think what you're feeling is sexual attraction pure and simple. It might be pheremone-related or it might not be but there's no such thing as "masculine power" or "alpha males" in the human beings. I think you are confusing gender issues and dominance and what you're talking about is dominance or plain old attraction. So yeah, like as not other women feel it--and guys too. Everybody loves a person with confidence and charisma. Could be it's charisma not the other stuff.

Some people have charisma and a sense of confidence. Yes it is sexy. What they make of it is more important. Power can be used in good ways and bad ways. Men and women can both have this kind of power. With a woman, it would be the one men can't resist, the one who can twist them around her little finger. There's nothing so magical about all this.

I enjoyed Ian's comments because they were so refreshing. Ian, I bet you can get a terrific lady, because you have a great sense of humor!

About the "Mac" story...where I come from, capitalizing Him in the middle of a sentence is reserved for God.

You're confusing two things: the alpha male who gets the girls, and men with quiet strength and pride in themselves. They have what looks to me like masculine power. However, I think the main ingredient's pride. When the guy in the grocery store was reading the label, what else could have been showing but his pride? I don't mean misplaced pride, the sort that causes problems, I mean the sort that glows out of a person when they are 'straight and true'.

I'm not sure it's masculine power either, because women can have the same thing too, and it draws both males and females whichever it is that's got it.

- Pet

I beg to differ with the poster who said alpha males don't exist / don't have masculine power. My husband's work means he's continually facing armed confrontation; he couldn't do the job but for his abilities in regard to being calm and handling people with his commanding Presence. He often doesn't need to use force because he's a Man others obey. I wouldn't say he's macho but he's most definitely an alpha Male with Masculine Power. What I love about him is he's the kind of guy who can just by his presence calm a tense situation down. He's a real rock. This is what I call the essence of masculine Power. I wouldn't say he's Dominating, he's just naturally a Man to Obey. He's an Alpha Male because he's a guy people obey, that's it.

When I'm connecting with an alpha male with the kind of masculine power the boss wrote about, something happens. With other men, I'm pretty dominant and don't allow them to order me around. But with the alpha male, I find myself obeying them and wanting very much to obey. It's like, when other men tell me what to do, it's out of order, but when a particular alpha male does it, I become ..... obedient. It's like I have to obey, no question. I want to and need to obey in some primeval way and it feels good to do so.

Do others feel this same way?

how do you up testosterone?

It is interesting reading what taken in hand women find most attractive in a male...commanding presence, solid convictions, one who can hold his head up when all about him are losing theirs and blaming him, all the stuff Rudyard Kipling described as being a 'man.' Not sugar and spice and everything nice, this is also the stuff real women are made from.

So what attracts one woman to what she would describe a dominant or alpha male (if one uses these terms with respect to humans) when another woman would look at the same male under the same circumstances and simply balk? It's a difficult question but one which biology attempts to answer.

As a quick answer, Charles Darwin gives the clue to this evolutionary question. Though he admitted at the time of his writing he could not prove it, subsequent research is bearing him out. He observed that it is not the male dominance that is most important in evolution but rather the dominance of the female in sexual selection. He writes in Descent (Sexual Selection): I think it is a general rule that the female of any species will select the male whose dominance most enhances her own dominant traits.

Various studies in humans have shown that females in general will be attracted to males whose dominant genes (after investigation finds this to be true) are complimentary to the dominant genes of the female. Anyone care to discuss whether or not, in general anyway, it is in reality the female who selects the male and not the other way around? Neither Darwin nor others can explain the physiology behind this highly adaptive characteristic of the the female but the observation seems to hold true in all species.

So, I think one should put away the idea that male dominance is something greater than the female ability to gather up that genetic windfall and use it for the strengthening of the female and hence the species as a whole.

Frank Nelson

To ask, "do you like a man to tell you what to do?" is rather like asking, "do you like a man to undress you?" The answer to both questions is, "If I'm sexually turned on to him, then yes. If I'm not, then NO! Blech! Get away from me, you creep!" And if you said yes, you might add, "it depends how he does it." I doubt anyone here is turned on by bossy men per se; I'm certainly not. It has to be just the right man bossing in just the right way.

Melanie

Consider the stereotypes exposed. I think those of us who enjoy the philosophy fostered by this site are all well aware of stereotypes, their flaws, and their benefits. Some of us have picked one to emulate. Others have picked one close to what they want and removed perceived flaws and emulated that. Yet others just choose to be themselves, and if that happens to resemble a given stereotype it doesn't matter, because they too are trying to find their way to happiness and fulfillment.

KrosRogue

Goodness! I interpreted Sarah Broden's post so very differently from the way you did. To me, this just goes to show that we all bring our own perspective to what we are reading – and that therefore, it behoves us to try to be aware that we could be wildly misunderstanding something. As it happens, whilst I am an atheist, I too dislike the D/s custom of capitalising “him” and “he” and using lower case to denote submission, but that is just because it is non-standard English and thus for the uninitiated reader reads less smoothly than it otherwise would. However, I think that if you had read Sarah's piece without that capitalisation, you might well not have read it the same way you did at all. Perhaps you would, but I'd be willing to bet that that is true for some readers.

I don't think that anything Sarah or Glory have said can be taken to imply that this quality we are discussing is congenital or not something that can be developed. But the mere fact that a quality is not congenital does not mean that it does not exist for whatever reason.

Shaun wrote:

Alpha males don't exist, people. There is no such thing as universal power. Power is situation specific. It is something that anyone can get, everyone can lose, and nobody has a monopoly on.

Just because my husband can silence a room full of our friends doesn't mean the mob next door will give him a second of quiet. He is a brilliant HoH for me but lots of other women would abhor him in that role.

If leadership were a readily obtainable quality, transferrable from group to group, we wouldn't need more than one political party. And corporations could save millions of dollars in trying to train their managers and supervisors in how to motivate and lead their staff. everyone is looking for a formula. It doesn't exist.

Maddy

That was an awfully nice compliment to pay Ian, Christa! I second it, and I'll add a comment myself in a moment.

Malcolm

There has been testing and studies done. Alpha males compared to other males have difference even at the basic level of brain functioning. Alpha males have significantly higher levels of seratonin, this effects the limbic system (which controls your basic emotions and instincts fight, flight, fear, and well sex). Alpha males do not need to fight to be in leadership they assume it naturally and yes there are alpha females too and they usually are submissive in nature but can only truly submit to an alpha male - both are in limitted supply - the females have different tendencies than the male but when combined together they are usually a very sympatico fit. I know that i am an alpha female that is also a submissive, yet most men are not dominant enough to even begin to obtain my submission. I have been evaluated to an extent by someone who has done studies in this area and am quite positive that i am that. And i am also in a relationship with an alpha male - there is a difference between regular just "dominant" males and an alpha male - just in relationship styles alone, and the needs that are filled - alpha males are like mentors and teachers, they are designed to make you feel stronger and to teach, alpha males give you that sense of belonging that sense of attachment that alpha females so need - the rest are fine for having a fling with but an alpha is more like a mate for life. I have been in many different relationships and the alpha male relationship is the only way i can feel and be open in and understand myself as well.

-Trouble

The most visible features of the alpha male is sexual access. Alpha malehood is a result of female selection process. It reflects a different reproduction strategy. The goal of reproduction is to get your genes into the next generation. Most males pair with a female in order to protect his offspring, therefore ensure his line. Alpha male mate with as many females as possible, some of children will get raised by other males and continue his line.

I would first like to thank the boss and everyone contributing to this thoughtful community. It is finding a wonderful website like this every once and again that reminds me why I have internet access. Thanks to my sister Lisa for sharing this site with me.

Seems after reading so much here that this topic has pulled me to post. Much of my life, I've had a tendency to intellectualize versus act (be alive) on topics of what it means to be man, to have masculine power. I believe it is important to acknowledge diversity and our own uniqueness while on a path to settle somewhere between where we are (who we are) and who we want to be.

I'd like to say to Ian, forget the "leagues".  This is your life, your game. The passage to ourselves comes with the care of those that we learn to love and trust, not a recipe empirically accepted by everyone, much less... just us folks here. I'd like to recommend some reading for you, and as well perhaps request a link for the Taken In Hand books page. It is No More Mr. Nice Guy, written by Robert A. Glover.

Don't jump to a conclusion on the title, as this book is not about "meanness", but about men finding a way to stop seeking approval and start getting what they want in life... ensure their needs are met, to express their emotions, to have a satisfying sex life, to embrace their masculinity and form meaningful relationships. 

I look forward to reading and sharing more.

David

What distinguishes the majority of men from the few is their inability to act according to their beliefs.  - Henry Miller
 

Don't jump to a conclusion on the title, as this book is not about "meanness", but about men finding a way to stop seeking approval and start getting what they want in life... ensure their needs are met, to express their emotions, to have a satisfying sex life, to embrace their masculinity and form meaningful relationships.

What a lovely summary of a book that a lot of men might benefit from. I dated many of them before I met MB. LOL.

There is such a world of difference between being an assertive man and being an abusive one. Assertive men are able to seek what they want, calmly and compassionately, with clear vision of what they will and will not accept in life. Abusive men resort to schoolyard tricks like name-calling, or using physical advantage to overpower and assault a reluctant partner.

Assertive men are gifts to their partners, their families, and their communities. Abusive men are usually impotent bullies who can only feel good about themselves at someone else's expense.

Love your Henry Miller quote.

Maddy

What I find decidedly creepy about self-help books is that all of them seem to be about PRETENDING. That surrendered Wife thing is all about pretending to be dumb, pretending not to have any opinons, pretending not to notice if your husband takes a wrong turning when he's out driving (don't get me started on that one again). They're all about playing daft games. None of them are about being honest, discussing your feelings, saying what you really think, which I have found is the only thing that helps. When some ANNOYING person on this website said he thought I had issues about trusting my husband and I found myself thinking (much to my fury)"oh, ****, it's true" it shook me up and lead to me actually talking to my husband about stuff I would normally never have dreamed of talking to him about, and it's actually improved things between us, it's really helped. But none of these s.h. books ever suggest anything like that, they're all about pretence and playacting and lies which is why I loathe them so violently (quite apart from the fact that they are invariably atrociously badly written). I now have this terrible compulsion to be truthful with my husband about EVERYTHING, which can be very inconvenient for me (sometimes painfully so), no self-help book ever suggest being honest, all they ever talk about is playing bloody silly games.

I can't really imagine ever reading a book to 'improve my sexual prowess' , I mean sex is something you just DO, I can't imagine following an instruction manual! Every time I read the reviews of one of these se;lf-help books I just think they sound totally idiotic. And as for men reading them -oh dear! Real men simply do not read self-help books. Real men read Clive Cussler.

Sure sex is natural but that does that mean we can't find new, thrilling techniques? Maybe you were born with some sort of inherited memory of all skills and permutations possible for love making. I sure wasn't so I'm open to new ideas.

If you want to give your man a delightful surprise or two, you don't need to go past How to be a Great Lover by Lou Paget. She has some wonderful things to try in there and no, she doesn't tell you to fake it or do things you don't want to.

The first time I sat MB back and tried basketweaving on him - well let's just say he was a happy man. A very happy man. He has enjoyed being my instrument of learning.

I'll never believe there is much in life we can't get better at, as long as our minds are open. If I didn't believe that I would never been searching for sites like this one.

My husband is a very practical person but he doesn't believe all the knowledge he needs to lead a rich and full life is either intuitive or God-given. He respects the instruction manuals that come with the complex toys that are part of modern life. In fact he even reads them. Thus he has become - to too many people IMO - a wonderful person to call when there is a problem with a new car, a digital camera, the wiring in a lamp, the alignment of a gate, the building of a fence ..... ad infinitum.

He reads mostly practical books but they are just the handyman's equivalent of self help. And when I wanted him to read and explore a Taken In Hand life with me, he did that too. He has no desire to reinvent the wheel when there exists a vast pool of knowledge and experience that can be tapped into and improved on.

My attitude when I picked up How to be a Great Lover wasn't apologetic - I knew there were no complaints in that department - it was more curiousity - and keenness - what might I do to really surprise him?

Lou Paget gave me that. Oh yes indeed.

Maddy

It gives me a terrific rush to read something like "I love him more than life itself". Isn't that just what life is about! Lucky you, Adjel, I wish I could say the same about even one of my wives, fond though I have been of them all in different ways. To know that someone has found a DD relationship to work this way is highly gratifying. I'm not an Alpha Male type - just a rather absent-minded man who is glad his wife is quite submissive and wishes she was even more so in some ways, and especially wishe she was t urned on by spanking! I wonder if she could magically make me into an Alpha Male?!! I think not. I would feel wrong somehow, the writing on my walls says NO to that idea.

Malcolm

I think what defines an alpha male more than anything else is confidence. Confidence that comes from self awareness, self assurance, and courage of conviction.

But I also believe that it is situational.

I have a friend who is a coach and also a cop. He can't control his team to save his life. They run amok. But, start talking about his job, and he changes. He exudes confidence. As a cop, he's alpha -- as a coach, he ain't.

My wife's OB/GYN is an alpha as a doctor. He earns enormous respect from the people who work with him for being a no-nonsense, take-charge, baby-saving miracle worker. Definitely alpha. Outside the hospital, he is a freekin' nutbar!!! Eccentric and nowhere near alpha.

I teach continuing Ed at a local university. In my classroom, I am the MAN. I control the tempo, the direction, the emotion. I walk softly; the stick sits dusty and unused in the corner. Alpha.
Outside the classroom, I am more like Mr. Milquetoast. More Alan Alda-like than alpha.

So is the true Alpha male the man who carries that overwhelming confidence in any and every situation? Or is it the man who rises to the occasion when you want/need/wish him to be?

Steve

The reader said, "I think you are confusing gender issues and dominance and what you're talking about is dominance or plain old attraction."

It's much more than charisma, it's the total male not handicapped by fears, old emotional wounds or excuses. He "owns" (as in takes full responisibility of) everything that belongs to him, knows how to manage, and lead.

The Alpha Male does not look to his woman to make decisions, yet always cherishes her input. He is able to move forward without needing her, yet does not without her. He listens, and remembers the little things about her because he cares and cherishes her, like a precious and raw jewel. He knows how to make her feel safe, and does those things every time. He intimately knows her fears and desires, not by mindreading but by talking with her often, and really pays attention. He puts "knowing her" at the top of his priorities, and does things that shows he does, and frequently, daily, even hourly at times. He constantly puts her up on a pedistal to honor and respect.

I am a new reader, and am learning of my maleness. My woman and I are Christians, and have found the boss's perspective to be Biblically aligned. I have always been an alpha Male, yet never exercised it fully. Just in the last 3 months I've begun to remove the shroud, and walk right past the fears, and use the wounds of my past as strengths not weaknesses. I am changing.....no....I'm becoming my true self, as God created me.

Funny....when you truly seek the truth, you often find it. Great site!

This is all very interesting, just so long as you don't confuse your girlfriend with a dog. A woman is not the same as a German shepherd, just bear that in mind.

There is no doubt in my mind there are alpha males as well as females in all species of being. The alpha beings have complete emotional understanding, at least as far as that person is capable of learning in their life. (They have worked hard enough on their minds and they know it.) Alpha beings associated with all walks of life, from the criminaly oriented to the big shot businessmen, been in all positions (including criminal inclination and succesful positions, this adds to true life experiance and knowledge), got into fights, got beat up, broke some bones/teeth etc. Lived a difficult life, and made something of themselves without a complaint.

What girls feel (coming from a man hence I understand the dominance you describe) you feel the rare connection of the outer shell with the core personality of the man. Either the man doesn't have good core values or isn't very smart, or the man is in fact very smart and has ideal values, but does not know how or desire to connect that with his outer persona. The state of the connection I described is unusually rare for such a simple concept.

In the very young alpha dominance is not what it appears to be. In my experiance the young who seem like alpha males, do not possess alpha traits that mature or real women can sniff out. These (alpha) are the few men who know how to be quiet, I have never met another alpha male who was not quiet in large groups or meetings. It's all about intelligence. Women know the bigmouths in the groups are the showoffs, more considered beta or most likely delta males. In catastrophic circumstances these beings are not capable of saving their family, despite if they can punch some one or prove themselves by being tough. Women know this, and by instinct they desire to be with the one man who provides safety emotionally and physically.