I am SO glad you wrote this article! I've felt just like that when reading those negative comments about brats "What's wrong with brats?" I've wondered.

I am quite definitely a brat, and I do all that stuff you wrote about, being deliberately provocative, and yes I get 'the look', my husband knowing perfectly well what I am up to when I stick out my tongue, make a provocative comment, shake my bottom at him, as you say.

Mind you, it's not always an act, sometimes I lose my temper and get bloody-minded for real, but these days he's pretty good at dealing with that too.

I do not find brats cute and lovable. I think that they are annoying. Further, I think that being a brat is antithetical to a taken in hand relationship. From my perspective, the brat thing is about making a game out of discipline. As I understand Taken In Hand relationships, we take discipline seriously.

J

When a person describes herself as a brat, that says to me that this person is claiming that as a basic part of her identity. I see this as distinct from occasional teasing playfulness. Based on the way you describe your relationship, CofHC, you do not sound like what I think of as brat. I agree with you that people who take discipline seriously can nevertheless have playful times. My experience of people who describe themselves as brats is that they are always playing. For them the focus is primarily on the act of spanking which they think of as as fun and/or erotic. There isn't a sense that spanking represents one person deferring to the authority of another. AS I see it, in the Taken In Hand relationship, the focus is on the authority rather the means of discipline.

A brat, in my experience, thinks that she is being cute when she provokes a disciplinary reaction. This is the opposite of my understanding of a taken in hand relationship, in which a person has a sense of failure when she needs to be disciplined. It is a failure because it means she has not met the expectations set by the head of the household. It means that he is disappointed with her. There is nothing fun or cute about it.

J

I found Lady K's comments thought-provoking. I can see how there's a big difference between brattiness seen as a sort of teasing defiance of authority, versus a response of guilt or shame over feeling one has failed the expectations of the man's authority. But personally, I don't really relate to either of those. I have not yet been in a real-life Taken In Hand relationship, but I have a pretty thorough and detailed understanding of my own inclinations. And my reaction to a dominant man's discipline, in the way that I need it and imagine it, would be neither shame nor humor, but rather *fear*. It's the fear that sends me into submission, and if it's done right it's also an erotic experience.

As I see it, the point of discipline is neither to make the woman feel bad and unworthy, nor to have a chuckle about it; the point is to powerfully reestablish the man's dominance, and put the woman firmly back in her place. And it seems to me that fear is the best way to do that. But then, I'm not really big on guilt in any context, so that would just not be an effective tool to use on me; attempts to make me feel guilty almost never succeed, they just annoy or amuse me. With regard to brattiness, that doesn't really hold much appeal for me, either. I can be playful and mischievous, but to me that's not the same thing as being bratty. I guess I think of brattiness as being childish and goofy; whereas one can engage in some playful mischief, yet still act like an intelligent adult. But maybe this is just one of those things where the word in question - 'brat' - has very different connotations for different people.

- Dee

Dee seems to have understood me as saying that I think the point of discipline is to make the woman feel "bad and unworthy". I would like to clarify. That is not what I think at all. When I know that I have done wrong I feel guilty and being disciplined helps me to release feelings of being bad and unworthy. Rather than creating guilt, for me, being taken in hand removes guilt.

J

Thanks to J for clarifying that for her the point of discipline is not to make her feel guilty and unworthy, but rather to release those feelings. I can see how spanking or other discipline would have that sort of cathartic effect; but I still have a hard time relating because I seldom feel guilty for not living up to other people's expectations. (But I can feel hellaciously bad about not living up to my own expectations.) Maybe that's because my romantic relationships so far have not been D/s; but I think I can imagine how I would react in that circumstance as well.

Thanks also to Tevemer for the distinction between childish versus childlike. I'll agree that some childlike qualities are wonderful, and adults could use more of that. Not only playfulness, but also (and more importantly to me) a sense of wonder and magic in how they relate to the world. Children can actually be quite serious. (Or at least, that's how I was when I was young. I really loosened up a lot when I became an adult; I'm much more playful now than I ever was as a child. I hated goofiness so much when I was little that I refused to watch most cartoons on tv; and I once whacked another kid with a long piece of lumber just because she would not stop acting silly and be serious.)

But some of what's called 'bratty' behavior does strike me as more childish - there was a mention of pinching somebody's bottom, or sticking your tongue out, etc. Or I guess, making funny faces and goofy noises also seems childish to me. I just can't imagine myself doing that sort of thing. I never did it when I was a child, so why would I do it now? Totally unappealing to me; but then, any sort of "age play" is really not my cup of tea. (That's no reason why other people should not enjoy it, though.) My own playful mischief revolves more around wry sarcasm, and playing the occasional practical jokes on my friends. Let's hear it for the snarky subs!

Thanks for the comments Race, what you described is what I was trying to describe too.

J, I think for the intention of my actions is everything. It is not how much I am a brat or when; it is what I intend from my heart. I am playful and that is what I intend. To me that is what a brat is. Grown ups that act like children to me and are mean spirited are not brats. That is a different thing all together. I use a 5 letter "B" word to describe women who act like this. I am playful most of the time. That is what works for us. Sure we are serious, but only when we have to be. Humour is a big part of what makes us who we are a couple. I think it is a bigger part than most people could tolerate. When I do those silly things my husband says, "You are such a brat." I know what he means, and he always says it with that special twinkle in his eye.

I would not call what we do age play. It may seem child like, but we are acting as adults all the time. Age play is not really my thing, or my husbands. I think it is ok for some, but it gives me the willies! It is not something I really understand.

Thanks for the great discussion folks!

Take care,
Tevemer

How does it do us a disservice if both parties enjoy it? We both a tremendous sense of fun, and have the same sense of humour. To us the "bratting" is great way for us to connect, without anything serious having to happen. I think if my husband thought this Taken in Hand stuff had to be ALL serious ALL the time he would give up on it. It is certainly not blatant disrespect. I have a lot of respect for him. I love him more than anything in the world. I respect him more than at any time in our relationship. Part of the reason I respect him so much is because he is man enough to handle the bratting, enjoy it and realise that it is in no way a threat to his position of head of the household. He does not need to have things all serious to know I respect him.

Take care,
Tevemer

...is the only way to describe anyone who doesn't see a little brat as someone who needs lots and lots of loving.

Why are they brats? Because, gentlemen, they need your attention!

What is the point in a Taken In Hand relationship if someone just kowtows to your will? i.e. Where is the fun and laughter, where is the thrill, where is the domination that leads to submissiveness?

Brats want the thrill and that gorgeous feeling of submissiveness that grows in the bottom of their tummies when they are brought back into line. Gentlemen... If you don't understand this, then you have no right to call yourself dominant.

If you are another submissive woman who doesn't understand this, then you are a doormat.

Come on! Life is serious enough!

Life without brats would be so deadly boring....and CONTROLLING!!!

Anyway, those are my thoughts on the matter. But, hey, each to their own....

L.L.

If a man calls me a Brat, I consider it a compliment!!

I think brats are divine actually ;) I can be a brat but I can also be sweet. I'm not addressing this at anyone in particular but why sometimes does this stuff have to be so darned serious! It should be fun! I agree with the writer of this post! I love being a brat! It gets me what I want more times than it doesn't! And my spanker loves me being a brat because it gives him a good reason to spank my derriere ;)He then turns me from a brat into a contrite individual~ what's so bad about that scenario! As for making a game out of discipline... well it is a game to me to engage in discipline. Spanking and dominance is so many things to so many people! I am sure sometimes when someone reads what I have to say they probably think I'm some opinionated bratty woman that likes to just annoy her spanker to get his attention like some child. Well that is fine because I can also be a child, but I can also be a very nice and likeable person as well as that brat. Just because a person finds it annoying for someone to act bratty~ well at the same time the person that is the brat and her spanker may love the hell out of that approach and that is what counts :)

I'm a brat and proud of it. And yes, you're right. If I'm behaving bratty, I'm PROVOKING a punnishment. I guess in that sense, people might not be satisfied with a submissing having control (because, essentially, that's what a brat is doing, deciding when the punnishment should take place and what for, right?).

Some Doms need to be in control on EVERY level, concrete (actual spanking) and abstract (I call the shots, not you). So of course, some might view brattiness as a way of taking away control from the Dom. I don't think it's so much seriousness as it is a complete form of Domination. Frankly I find Doms of this sort to be very insecure and less manly, as they can't take any deviation from their ultimate control and percieve this as a threat to their position in a relationship. A real man can handle my having some level of control, because at the end of the day, it doesn't change his position in our relationship or my level of respect for him. At the end of the day, he's still the Dom.

Of course, this is just how I handle MY relationship and this isn't for everyone. What we do is best for us and that's pretty much the sum of it. Not everyone is satisfied with that, obviously, and that's fine and good if everyone's a consenting adult and they're all okay with their own unique needs and desires.

Hope no one takes this personally.

Brat

I'm a brat and proud of it. I think brats are 'The resistant woman'. They're people willing to challenge authority, wanting to test it. Brats are people that love a good debate, and not afraid of going against the grain. Sure this may be 'annoying' to some, but I find those are the people that 'don't rock the boat'. Brats will annoy those people because they will rock the boat, question everything before accepting it as true or rejecting it.

Brats are intelligent, capable, and inquisitive people when they're not being mischievous and trying to earn that well deserved spanking ;)

Brattiness is not meant to get a REAL disciplinary reaction. I have mixed feelings about brattiness. I try not to be too bratty because I think at some point it's almost like you are saying: "this isn't really the relationship dynamic that I want and I'm trying to be subtle in taking back the control."

It's that fine like between: "just joking" and "just joking but not really."

Yet, on the OTHER hand, SOME brattiness has nothing to do with one's level of seriousness IMO. I'm owned. There are no levels to that. It's not contingent on my obedience or submissiveness. If I displease him, I am punished, period. If I'm being a brat and he doesn't like it, I am punished. If I get away with it that one time or he finds it amusing that one time it doesn't make him "less the boss" or me suddenly "in charge."

We are very playful people, but understand our relationship dynamic is not PLAYING. He owns me. He has full power and rights in our relationship to do whatever he wants. What we have though, is a game within a reality. SOMETIMES we're playing around. But that doesn't mean he's less in control or I'm suddenly in control. It means he's playing with me like a cat plays with a mouse.

Some parents play make believe games with their kids, like cowboys and indians. It doesn't mean the parent suddenly stops being a parent and really becomes a cowboy. If I play at being a brat, understand, it doesn't stop the reality that I'm owned.

A few days ago, I was cute, and sweet, and definitely bratty, and my magnificent other was utterly charmed, and called me his little devil. It adds a bit of spice to moments that in previous relationships, he has said just bored the living you-know-what out of him. He wants me to play with him, and I do. It makes all the other stuff we do stand in stark contrast. The serious moments are all the more intense because we are both taking them hyper-seriously. The devilish moments tell him I will challenge him in ways he doesn't expect, but underlying all of this is the knowledge that I always respect him first, and am a devil when it's fun and appropriate.