What women don't want

I've met guys who try to pull the “I'm an alpha male” stunt. I can see right through it – it's a joke. I agree with various posters on this site that women hate a wuss but what do I mean by that? If you're a guy that's been reading books or websites telling men how to be an alpha male, I'll bet your idea of what's a wuss is different than mine. Let me tell you a story: it might enlighten you.

A few years ago, I met a guy who was so kind and loving I fell in love with him. It didn't matter that he wasn't obviously dominant. He did seem strong. I rejoiced in his strength! Here was a guy that was unafraid to express his feelings. He melted my heart by giving me a gift that showed he'd noticed something about me as an individual – not flowers and chocolates but something that meant something to me personally.

But after a while, the loving compliments and kindness stopped. He started swaggering around being a caricature of a ‘dominant’ man. He became kinda defensive and expected me to pay for my meal when he took me to dinner. I could tell he'd been reading a book or website for men that he was trying to follow – and he even admitted it!

He was no longer natural. It felt so FAKE! and the fact that he was following some idiotic advice from a book made it feel like he was real insecure. I could tell some of the changes was because he was in love with me and scared of being hurt but that didn't make it easier or less painful.

I'm a woman that likes give and take. If a guy asks me out to dinner then expects me to pay for my dinner, trust me, that's not going to impress me. Young insecure guys who've been reading websites and books about being ‘dominant’ will now be thinking “sponger”. I've got news for you guys – I'm not. If I invite you to dinner, am I going to give you a bill for your half at the end of it? I don't think so. I also like to buy a guy gifts, and do acts of kindness for the guy, too – it's a two-way street, not all one way.

That guy made me feel unloved even though I knew he loved me! It felt like I wasn't special enough to him to be kind to anymore. When we were in line for the theater and all the couples ahead of us in the queue paid together and the guys doing the paying didn't look like they resented doing so, and then we get to the window and my guy pays for himself then I pay for myself, it hurt. I could see the couple behind us looking at us, and it hurt.

When a guy wants us each to pay our ‘fair share’ for everything, it doesn't feel good. It makes you feel like it's not a relationship, it's two separate people being sure to keep it that way.

That guy thought I wouldn't respect him if he paid for the dinner or movie he'd invited me out for. In fact, what I didn't respect was his lack of generosity of spirit. What I didn't respect was his insecurity, his weakness, his meanness. What I didn't respect was that he did not feel good enough about himself as he truly was – kind and loving – and that he tried to become something he wasn't. It made me feel sad, and the money issue made me feel like there was distance between us. The comparisons with other men I know – men who have the strength and security not to be penny-pinching and mean, men who are kind in their strength – became too glaring and I ended the relationship with him.

Now I'm with a guy that has never let me pay for anything except when I've been the one doing the inviting. That doesn't mean he's spent way more than the other guy and that I've been taking advantage of him – I've done more for this guy than I ever did for any guy before, and I love to buy him gifts and treat him to a full body massage often. He says he feels pampered, and I feel pampered by him too. We've been together over a year now. He's definitely not a wuss!

What is wuss behavior? A guy that's desperate, a guy who's sure he's not good enough, a guy that sacrifices what he wants for you in an attempt to curry favor, a guy that's indecisive and apologetic, a guy that doesn't have any steel in his personality. Most of all, a guy that plays the pity card. That's what being a wuss is, not acts of kindness, paying for dinner, buying little gifts.

There's websites and books out there telling men women want a dominant man (true) but those that tell men that courtesy and kindness and a bit of give and take are wuss behavior are doing those men a disservice. I hope this site is not one of them.

Lonnie

Take the Taken In Hand tour

Have you seen the following articles?
The anchor of love
It's not about blame, so forget ‘fairness’!
To be taken
When rape is a gift
Communication
He who dares, wins
Taking her in hand when she won't ask for it
The sexuality of ‘non-sexual’ dominance
Is there consent?
Secretary: what did you think of this film?

2004 Sep 28 - 08:55 | add new comment | latest article | previous article | next article |

What women want

If the man started behaving like that after reading one of those stupid self-help books I can't say I'm in the least surprised, all those books seem to do is to encourage people to behave like idiots, and play stupid games and fake things. Of course it will have screwed him up.

Of course, there is another possibility. Maybe the man was a mean bastard all along, and it was the nice personality he had at first that was the act, and once he'd lured you in he started showing you his true character. Glad you've got someone nicer now.

by Louise C on 2004 Sep 28 - 12:49 | reply to this comment

Dominance and courtesy

Lonnie - there are plenty of men and women on this site who believe that there's nothing wussy about courtesy and kindness. I suspect most of us women would run a mile or more if our men decided that being kind and courteous would somehow demean them.

For myself, my husband has become more considerate and kind now he's head of the household, and thus the more dominant one in our relationship.

--

"There is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so" Hamlet, somewhere.

by ConfusedOfHomeCounties on 2004 Sep 28 - 18:23 | reply to this comment

The opposite of dominant

I enjoyed reading your article but it seems to me that the man you described was the opposite of dominant. Expecting to pay for your half of a date is just plain rude not to mention disrespectful especially if he was the one who asked you out.

Reminds me of the couple in The Joy Luck Club where the man split everything financial right down the middle. Thank goodness your example showed his true colors before you got too invested: emotionally or otherwise!

by Carrie on 2004 Sep 28 - 19:39 | reply to this comment

Alphabet Soup

I think it's ridiculous to try and change one's basic being on account of what one reads in a book. And blindly following what's printed there without thinking of the likely repercussions in a real life relationship? Now that's just plain foolish.

One thing that guy was missing, Lonnie, is that strong people THINK FOR THEMSELVES and do not run with the herd. Show me a conformist who reads books to know how to relate to the opposite sex, and I will show you someone who is not ever going to be dominant in any way, shape or form.

Also, being mean and a cheapskate makes a man exactly that, mean, petty, selfish and a cheapskate. It does not make him a dominant personality. I went out with a twit like that many years ago and found out pretty quickly that he was a complete waste of my time.

My husband paid for our dates in the beginning and then as a relationship developed I reciprocated in other ways. A couple of years after we were married he commented that he was glad I was not a gold digger when we dated. He said, "You treated my money as if it were yours."

His jaw dropped when I answered, "Yes, and now it is!" LOL

But the point is, I didn't take advantage and order the highest item on the menu, and he was generous and made an investment in the relationship.

by a Taken In Hand reader on 2004 Sep 28 - 23:24 | reply to this comment

rediculous

splitting the bill down the middle isnt being a cheapskate - its splitting the bill. its not like hes not paying for you. you keep justifying that he isnt generous because he doesnt pay for you all the time. this proves you are just a money grubbing idiot who thinks generous equates for being paid for all the tim. thats so disgusting. women need to stop saying they are equal and demanding free rides off the backs of men. if you ask me he is lucky you got rid of him.

by a Taken In Hand reader on 2005 Apr 30 - 21:30 | reply to this comment

"When a guy wants us each to

"When a guy wants us each to pay our ‘fair share’ for everything, it doesn't feel good. It makes you feel like it's not a relationship"

And how is bloodsucking a mans wallet and expecting him to pay for you all the time a fair relationship? Fair maybe to you, but not to him.

Everyone paying their own fair share, is FAIR. Expecting him to pay for you and him , is NOT FAIR. Unless you both pay for one anothers tab periodically but this is NOT what she is saying. She wants everything for nothing.

by a Taken In Hand reader on 2005 Apr 30 - 21:36 | reply to this comment

stupid

"What is wuss behavior? A guy that's desperate, a guy who's sure he's not good enough, a guy that sacrifices what he wants for you in an attempt to curry favor, a guy that's indecisive and apologetic, a guy that doesn't have any steel in his personality. Most of all, a guy that plays the pity card. That's what being a wuss is, not acts of kindness, paying for dinner, buying little gifts."

Yea but its OK for women to be like this all the time which they are. How come you never hear men complain about womens nonstop nagging and insecurities? Nice double standard. Typical of women, only thinking about themselves all the time , not giving a damn about anyone elses feelings but their own.

by a Taken In Hand reader on 2005 Apr 30 - 21:39 | reply to this comment

Typical Woman, Typical Man

Your complaint about the "typical woman" is, well, "typical". I would say just about everyone who frequents this site has "typical complaints" about the "typical woman" or the "typical man". I don't think any one of us wants the "typical", whatever you may define it to mean.

I think it's safe to say that almost all of us here want to find someone unique who may fit in the broad spectrum that we define as a "traditional relationship" who will be compatible for the long term.

I don't want a typical woman. The woman I hope to eventually find most assuredly won't want a typical man.

KrosRogue

by KrosRogue on 2005 May 1 - 12:27 | reply to this comment

Usually with us one or the ot

Usually with us one or the other pays for both. Sometimes if one of us is buying something frivolous in the shopping cart we split the bill or go to separate lanes. For us, even though we maintain separate bank accounts, we kind of have an understanding of "our" money. If he has a good month we both see the benefits. If he gets paid late (he's a freelance writer and things aren't always as timely as we'd like), we struggle through that together and things get bounced around on both of our credit cards so we can squeak through until things stablize.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with treating your sweety every now and then. It's nice when I get home after a long day and he says "let's just go out for dinner tonight."

I can see why someone would feel hurt by having a partner who always wanted to keep separate tabs. I can see where it would make someone feel disconnected from a relationship. When we go out we share everything. We eat off each other's plates as much as we do our own, and one of us pays. It just feels more couply that way.

by cj on 2005 May 27 - 01:25 | reply to this comment

Easiest solution, coward one. Where is the commitment?

It is so easy to criticize men for doing this, not doing that... I agree with you, although she says that a relationship is a two way road, she only focus on superfluous things, such as gifts or paying the bills... come on, what that guy needed was support, to regain self-esteem, that he did not have to act as a dominant male because she appreciated him for how he is, not who he is.

by brazilian girl on 2005 Jun 3 - 09:41 | reply to this comment

Insulting a man's masculinity

I remember once in the late 1970s when I was dating a nice fellow...he had recently lost his job. He took me out for a pizza, and I quietly asked him if he wanted me to help him pay (I was trying to be thoughtful, since I knew he was now out of work.) He looked VERY upset, went over to pay, then took me by the arm and told me to come outside. Once outside, he said, "Don't ever do that to me again".

Later, my father chided me too, saying, "You insulted his masculinity by implying he couldn't afford to take you out!"

Normally I would have never offered to pay, but I thought, in that case, that I was being nice. But my father said a guy's manhood matters more to him than that.

I'm an older woman (mid 40s), and it seems so many women my age run after younger guys. If I were single, I would not be...because so many younger guys look at things so differently..I could never stand a guy who expects me to pay for the date (or even half of it), who doesn't hold doors for me, who doesn't help me on/off with my coat, who doesn't hold the chair for me, who doesn't open car doors for me, etc.

What woman in her right mind wants to be treated like a co worker? Women want to be treated like a LOVER!

And what about women who throw themselves at men and ask them out for dates? As my Dad would say, "That's one desperate woman!" No thanks.

by BlueRose on 2005 Jul 9 - 23:22 | reply to this comment

It's not a matter of age

It's not a matter of age. There are many wonderful young men who do all those things. And there are older men who are bitter and angry and misogynistic and stand on their rights. It is an individual thing.

by the boss on 2005 Jul 10 - 00:36 | reply to this comment

Although I wouldn't mind payi

Although I wouldn't mind paying for half of things or opening my own doors, I'd wonder about a sudden change in behavior. If I were hurt or upset about something, I'd say so. I don't understand just standing by silently being "hurt" and not speaking to him about it. I'd expect to come to some sort of understanding about it - to communicate and discuss.

I think there is more to generosity than offering money or holding open doors. There is being prepared to help a person learn and to be willing to learn from them.

by emberlocks on 2006 Jan 22 - 16:06 | reply to this comment

Insecure?

The swagger, arrogant behaviour described in the article sounds very unappealing to me, whether it was caused by insecurity or not. I can't imagine many women wanting to be with a man who treated them like dirt. Why on earth should a woman who is being treated like this comfort the man who treats her that way? Perhaps she could have made more of an effort to explain to him that she didn't like him acting like that, but I doubt it would have made any difference. He had obviously got it into his head that this way the way to treat women, and I suspect he was enjoying it.

Louise

by Louise C on 2006 Aug 31 - 18:27 | reply to this comment

stupid

My thoughts also, and I'm female, I can see my behavour in this wuss behavour, and I think I could do with a little change in my thoughts and behaviour.

by a Taken In Hand reader on 2007 May 5 - 16:34 | reply to this comment

Money..yours..mine..ours.

My beloved says to me..you are mine..I have obligations to you because you are mine and I love you, I want to you feel protected and cared for, I will take care of you. He pays for most everything and if I need anything he gives me the money for it. This has not been easy for me to get used to. He makes much more money than I do, I have a couple jobs, none of them pay very well and will continue to work. I could never live with myself thinking that I was a burden to him on any level. I have never had anyone look after me this way. My ex husband was very much the separate money accounts type husband. I pamper my beloved, I give him total access to me at any time he wants or needs me. I don't deny him anything he needs from me. Why? Because I love him, I see the depth of his commitment to me, in the small ways he takes care of me, enough gas in my car, making sure my health is a priority. This is the man of my dreams. If I would give him the world in a heart beat.

by Hane on 2007 Nov 14 - 02:51 | reply to this comment

The man pays.

If a man takes a woman on a date, he pays. Period. Sorry, that's just my .02 on the subject. Lonnie, I'd say it's very normal to feel bad that he wanted to split things. I'm glad it seems like maybe you found a real man. I know this isn't the most PC comment for me to make. But let's just get to the real deal here, folks...

~HollyCakes

by HollyCakes on 2007 Nov 18 - 07:36 | reply to this comment

Th real deal

When I was young I had a boyfriend I used to go dutch with, or sometimes I would pay when we went out. He had less money than I did, so I thought nothing of it.

To me, it is a purely economic matter. If the man has more money than you, there's no reason why he shouldn't pay for everything. if he's got less money than you, there's no reason for not going dutch, or evey paying for it yourself sometimes.

The 'real deal' is that sometimes you may encounter a man less well-off than yourself, and when you do I don't see any earthly reason why you shouldn't pay for him sometimes. Surely a relationship should be about more than who pays for what?

Louise

by Louise C on 2007 Nov 18 - 15:49 | reply to this comment

I find this an interesting subject.

It's a wonderful feeling when you're with someone who treats you like that--it does feel very protective, and I see absolutely nothing wrong with wanting the guy to pay for you, as part of an entire care-taking package.

by pericles on 2008 Oct 31 - 13:56 | reply to this comment

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