Perhaps you would find it more effective to ask her to communicate with you through writing assignments, particularly when you reach the point where she backs away and no longer wants to discuss being taken in hand by you. I have an introverted personality, and have a hard time expressing myself in "on the spot" situations. I need time to think my position through, and be able to articulate it in my own format. For example, I may wish to discuss A, B, C and D, but while we are discussing B a question may arise that leads to F, G and back to A, leaving C and D untouched. But if I'm given time to write what I wish about A, B, C, and D then having it read, and discussing any questions that arise I feel that everything I've wanted to touch on is covered, without losing the flow. Also, after I've completed the writing assignment, I may remember things I'd planned to include that I didn't, I have the opportunity to revise it or I can bring them up while discussing the assignment later.

You also may find it helpful to have her read articles by others and ask get her to discuss those situations either face to face or in writing. Being able to discuss it from a third party perspective should help keep it from being her "controling you" in her mind, while giving you a good idea of what's going on in hers.

I agree with Melanie that just announcing very matter-of-factly that you will use spanking as punishment if you feel it's called for is a good idea. It will give her time to think over her feelings on it, and may very well turn her on, while she still has the ability to prevent it by not rebelling against you.

I really appreciate your comments. This has been quite helpful.

To address some specific issues:

...But I don't think she's being fair to you in expecting you to read her mind. Legally, you have no right to spank your wife, and doing so without her consent could get you in trouble.

As absurd as it may seem, I think it is fair for her to expect me to read her mind, although I wouldn't have thought of saying it quite that way. In fact, I think you hit the nail on the head with that thought.

As I said, we have been together a very long time and have been deeply intimate for all of our years. Perhaps "reading her mind" is simply another way of saying "going with your gut". Yes, I know, I'm not literally reading her mind but I am reading the dozens of small signals in the context of two decades of experience with her. That has become so intuitive that it often feels like mind-reading.

If you are ABSOLUTELY SURE that she will not go to the police if things don't turn out as she expects, then I think you should just go with your gut.

Yes, I am quite sure that she won't go the the police. There is too much built up in our relationship for it to go that far. If anything, I'm worried about damaging the relationship, not destroying it.

Perhaps you should just announce to her that you will spank her in the future just as long and hard as you think she needs. If she thinks you have gone too far at some point, she will have to talk to you about it.

...If she expects you to read her mind, she has no right to be angry if you do it wrong.

Interesting point: in order to complain that I have gone too far, the "price" she must pay is talking openly about it. If she wants me to truly dominate her without having to admit it, then she has to accept my judgment. If she isn't willing to accept my judgment, then she has to talk about it with me.

That seems fair.

But I suspect, if she seems frustrated by a light spanking, that she wants to be taken past the point of resistance to a total surrender.

And taking her there may be the only way to know for sure.

I need my husband to not care how I feel in a certain way. In order to satisfy a deeper need in me, he needs to ignore my protests until I am utterly subdued.

...It wasn't easy for me to communicate this need, and if he could have just read my mind, that would have been great.

That is certainly how it works with scolding. I have to brush aside her protests (which is only a bit short of ignoring them) and be firm with her.

I really appreciate your perspective on this. Having a woman explain this to me makes it easier.

Carlf

And yet another good piece of feedback!

Tell her you want to talk to her, and then tell her that you are the head of the household, and therefore her leader. Not will be, not want to be, but that you are. Tell her that any leader worth their salt listens to the input of their subordinates (don't like that word much, but it'll do), and that you therefore want to know her thoughts on what is and isn't acceptable, what her limits are etc. Tell her that if she has especially strong feelings about something, then she should stress that. And tell her that you will decide what - if any - of the items she raises that you will act on.

This is more domineering than I want to be. But, reading this did help quite a bit. It showed me that there is a limit to how strong and "in charge" I am willing to be, so, thank you!

This is a great website.

Thank you all!

Carlf

In reference to the boss's comment:

Carlf commented that ConfusedofHomeCounties's idea of getting his wife to set her own limits is a bit too domineering.

It wasn't the idea of her setting her own limits. I was specifically referring to the following:

Tell her you want to talk to her, and then tell her that you are the head of the household, and therefore her leader. Not will be, not want to be, but that you are.

Perhaps "domineering" was the wrong word. In fact, this is more of a stylistic thing. I'm not comfortable with the level of inequality implied and I'm quite sure that she wouldn't be comfortable either.

Dominance is a matter of degrees. The "head of household" paradigm combined with the notion of "Not will be, not want to be but that you are," implies a relationship that is imposed on her rather than surrendered by/from her. While I am willing to change the balance of equality to some degree, I'm not willing to go that far.

A big part of what I love about her is her inner strength. That has been there since the beginning of our relationship. She is one of the few women I know whose strength of personality is a match for my own.

This is a woman who teaches high-school in the inner city. On a daily basis, she commands the respect of over a hundred sixteen-to-nineteen-year-olds, most of whom do not easily respect white female authority figures.

I'm not willing to give up that part of her. It's mine. Her strength belongs to me just as much as the rest of her belongs to me. Yes, I'm willing to be dominant, to "win" the "struggle for dominance" with her but I won't tolerate her "letting me win".

In fact, as I write this, I think I may be answering part of my own original question. One of the things that has irritated me over the past couple of years is that she is too easily submissive, to the point of being passive-aggressive. That might be an issue that I can talk to her about and insist that she change.

ConfusedofHomeCounties suggested talking to her at a moment when she is feeling particularly submissive. I think I might do just that and tell her that if she continues to be "too easily submissive" and not share her strength with me, I *will* put her over my knee and spank for "for real".

You might note an irony in the notion of being punished for insufficient rebellion but I think it relates to the issue of passive aggression. Her unwillingness to talk about being submissive is, itself, an exercise in passive aggression and it is one of the things I'm struggling with.

I'm quite content to have her disagree with me, argue with me and even blow up at me. That I can deal with because, despite her strength, I'm stronger than she is. I can "win" the "argument" by subduing her with my superior strength (this is all verbal/emotional, not physical). Having won, I receive the prize of her intense affection and strong desire for me.

What I can't deal with is her winning by cowering and/or playing the victim. That I won't tolerate. And perhaps that is something that I am willing to spank her for, whether she consents or not.

I'm a lion. I married a lioness, not a house cat.

Again, thank you all for a very good discussion.

Carlf

Perhaps I am contradicting what I've written before about women being at fault and "deserving" a spanking, but here goes: I would suggest that you not discipline her unless you feel she deserves it - when something she's doing truly annoys you and truly feels destructive in some way. Your comment about spanking her for being too submissive reminded me of the first time Paul really spanked me hard. He couldn't do it just because I had asked for it - he needed a reason. He needed me to deserve it somehow or he just couldn't muster the proper mindset. The fact that I had been married to him for all those years, withholding from him an essential part of my emotional needs, heated his blood to the appropriate temperature.

If you love it when your wife stands up to you, but hate it when she's passive aggressive, I think you should home in on that feeling. I think when a man really loves his wife, he feels a sense of righteous anger when she puts the relationship out of joint in some way. And there's no set formula for this - only you really know what's damaging and what's good for the two of you. My husband can't stand it when I don't communicate openly and honestly. A good thrashing can quickly cut through all my reasons for holding back on him.

It may seem odd to spank her for being too submissive, but you, as her husband, feel the pulse of the relationship, and you know when submissiveness is nourishing and when it's poisonous. To me, the whole point of your dominance is not to make her act like a pussycat, but to bring you together. She submits by letting down the barriers to intimacy that she has put up. Your sense of annoyance is like a radar that points to your trouble spots. If you feel happy and close to her when she stands up to you, that's not a trouble spot.

Hope that makes sense.

Melanie

I am struck by your repeated reference to 'scolding' your wife - to the point that she dissolves in tears. To me this seems entirely wrong. What do you scold her for - and why do you feel that this is appropriate?

There seem to be some issues here that (IMHO) are unlikely to be solved by spanking...

Nina

Nina and Cara are both right, each in her own way.

Nina, you're correctly sensing the struggle that I am going through and you are having to do so despite my lack of skill in describing it.

"Scolding" is the wrong word, although I don't have a better one. As Cara indicates, it is in the context of an adult relationship.

On the other hand, I am very concerned about finding the line between treating her as a child verus treating her as a wife. That is why I'm here. Many of the women on this forum understand what it is like to be in the kind of relationship that my wife wants.

I grew up in a time (the 1960's) when men believed that they had a right to expect obedience from their wives. That notion was repulsive to me. I swore that I would never treat a woman as anything less than, or other than, my equal.

Now, after being married to a feminist for twenty-plus years, I am confronted by a woman who wants me to be stronger than her and who has actually said that "love, honor and obey" is a comfortable thing for her.

Being a dominant husband is something I never planned to do. I have no practice at it and have never learned the skills required. There is no one in my life to show me how to do it, least of all my wife.

As for her dissolving in tears, so far I have only done this when she was already in an emotionally charged state and needed the release. She was going to disolve in tears one way or the other. Her 'normal' way is to blow up, yell at me and – when I take her seriously – get frustrated and cry from the emptyness of it all. (Of course, if I don't take her seriously that's even worse).

I have learned how to take her to a place where she can cry in in a way that makes her feel loved, supported and protected. She wants to feel my strength and she wants me to use it. When I don't, or when I don't use it enough, she pushes me.

True, spanking isn't going to solve everything, but I think it is an ingredient in the solution. She has repeatedly suggested it, albeit in a teasing way.

In fact, I have tested the waters with some success but have not had a chance to update y'all yet.

Sorry for the tease, but you'll have to wait until I can gather my thoughts and make them coherient.

I'm still wondering, though, why your wife 'requires' all this scolding. What is she 'doing wrong', in your view and why is she in such an emotionally charged state? I just wonder whether assertion of authority and spanking are necessarly the right approach here. Maybe she needs lots of encouragement and support?

This is where I need the help of some of the women who post here. Some of you "get it" and can explain it in terms that make sense from the inside.

I'll do my best but I would appreciate it if some of you would pick up the threads and try to explain why a woman would feel this way.

Her need for scolding isn't about the subject of what she's being scolded for. It isn't about what she did "wrong", it's about the emotional state. If I try too focus on what she did or said, or what she is yelling at me about, she gets even more upset, because talking about the content is likely to mean that I *won't* assert authority and punish/scold her.

The absolute worst thing I can do is to talk through the problem, find common ground and calmly resolve the "issue" in a forgiving manner. Doing that means that she doesn't get what she wants. What she wants is for me to exercise power over her in order for her to feel my strength.

Sometimes the emotional state is hormonal. In particular, this tends to happen at her PMS time of the month. Sometimes it's that she's had a bad day. In no case does it have anything to do with me. When she's actually upset with me, she approaches me thoughtfully, calmly and gently and actually tries to address the issue at hand. She also takes the lead in those conversations.

I've learned through the years that when she is yelling at me, I can't get to the heart of the matter because "the matter" doesn't really exist. The closer I get to the center, the more I find smokescreens, misdirection and "straw men".

Whether it is scolding, spanking, or taking command of her, these are all different forms of the same thing.

As far as the spanking is concerned, again, I have my doubts about the wisdom of simply spanking harder.

Correct. It isn't about how hard I spank. It's about the fact that I do it in a way the she does not like and in a context where she has no choice in the matter.

I get spanked quite hard at times, but I always feel enveloped by my husband's love. There is no sense of 'punishment' being dished out, but instead that intimate connection that Frank so eloquently describes.

My wife also needs the feeling of being enveloped in my love, but more than that, she needs is the feeling of being enveloped in my "strength". She needs the sense of a rollercoaster ride, of being safely contained and carried along through something terrifying that she has no control over.

It sounds like you enjoy being spanked. You get off on the spanking itself. (If not, I would be interested in knowing what you *do* get out of it).

My wife doesn't like being spanked. I think what my wife thrives on is the feeling of being able to "act out", get punished for it and not have to be responsible. I think the idea is that she can have an emotional outburst and not have to be responsible for controlling it.

Sometimes it's about not having to get things "right" all the time. I think she needs the freedom to screw up and just get punished for it, rather than feeling like she's failed.

That's why, for us, the issue of 'non-consensual consent' never arises. My husband would never discipline me against my will, but it would not occur to me to resist.

That is a difference between you and her. She would never want to be spanked *unless* it was against her will. Resisting against it and being restrained (or contained) is the whole point. She wants to feel that no matter how hard she struggles, she isn't going to cross the line and "win". She doesn't have to worry about pushing back too hard. She doesn't have to restrain herself, I will do it for her.

I guess it is a little like climbing a mountain - once you're halfway up you wonder why you ever started this venture, but at the same time you know it will all be worthwhile when you get to the top!

Very true!

I'm probably not helping here, but I wish you and your wife all the best.

Thank you. And you *are* helping. You are forcing me to examine this from a particular point of view. In order to answer you, I have to examine the issues from multiple angles and figure out how my understanding of this is different from yours. Thus I have to sharpen my own understanding.

Could any of the other women reading this please pitch in try to explain this better than I can?

Carl -
Spanking helps me a lot when I'm "wound up" and I need emotional release. I'm basically upset, as a baseline state, and it only takes something small to set me off, something that normally wouldn't upset me. I have found that I really must have proper nutrition and regular exercise to keep my moods even. So the upset, in these instances, isn't really about whatever it seems to be about - that's just a trigger. It's very uncomfortable to be in such a mood and not be able to get out of it - it helps me to feel my husband's authority and strength around me. It also helps to just get spanked, because this will release tears, which can dissipate the mood. On the outside, it may look like he's punishing me for losing my temper, but really he's helping me deal with my unbalanced brain chemistry. Scolding, done properly, could probably accomplish the same thing.

This type of "discipline" makes me feel very loved and taken care of, whereas being spanked for non-emotional faults like procrastination leaves me rather cold. When I'm feeling well, I love erotic spankings and the other kind aren't necessary.

Hope this helps!

Melanie

Confused wrote in part:

I am very good at getting worked up into a terrible state over something minor. I find it very hard to talk about things when I'm in that state, and have never been "taught" how to deal with frustration and anger properly, so I bottle it up, explode, and burst into floods of angry tears - angry at myself, mind, for being weak.

This is pretty close to my wife.

I convince myself I'm useless, and act like I'm hell-bent on dragging everyone else down with me. Any attempts and being reassuring, encouraging or supportive at any point during this simply gives me an opening to run myself down even more.

Also close to her (at least as far as I can see). But here's the difference: I don't think she sees herself as being weak or useless and I don't think she realizes that her problem is within... at least not "in the moment".

She seems to really think that what she is yelling about is the real problem, until/unless I try to focus on it. As soon as I address her feelings, rather than her stated reason for them, she starts to come around, but it's a slow and arduous process.

Pre-DD, this behaviour would end up causing a row. Pre-DD,it would run along all of that course, and usually my husband would be none the wiser about what it was that sparked it, just that I felt bad about myself for some reason. .

Yes. I used to be equally clueless.

Now, depending on how far into that little rut I've got, either a stern word or a spanking pulls me back to myself, and lets me open up and be receptive to support and encouragement.

We're not there yet. It takes a lot of stern words and a lot of arguing back and forth before I am able to break through to her.

I need to be taken in hand before I'm able to accept support.

Same here. It's just that it takes a lot of work to get her in hand. Perhaps moving to a spanking sooner will help. I don't really know. She hasn't had a major blow up since I've been sharing thoughts with y'all. I expect it will be a week or two before the next one. By that time I will hopefully have this thought out to the point where I will be ready.

Hi Nina

Thank you for your ongoing dialog with me. This is very helpful.

We all 'lose it' at times, but is it possible that these emotional outbursts to which your wife seems to be prone occur rather more frequently than one would expect in a grown woman?

First of all, she doesn't lose it all that often. Despite my voluminous writing on this website, her intense outbursts happen once a month with regularity and occasionally when she gets stressed out at work.

I've only scolded her twice so far. As for what is normal in a grown woman, well, at the risk of sounding sexist, the "normal" range for women's emotional outbursts is pretty big.

Let's face it. She's forty three years old. She is in perimenopause and has arrived at this moment in her life at a time when HRT is unfashionable.

The reason I've been pursuing all of this is that her emotional outbursts are only the most intense part of a series of changes that have occurred over the past three years or so. Some of it is also centered around her desire to be more submissive or to have me be stronger for her.

Does she have issues with lacking self-worth and/or self-control? (Or is it largely due to stress associated with her demanding job?)

She has self-worth problems but those have been there as long as I've known her. She's dealt with self worth over the years but it's the kind of thing that tends to crop up when things get stressful. So, yes, that is another complicating factor but it's one I've been dealing with for a long time.

Yes, her job can also be a compounding factor but, again, she has been in the same job for more than ten years so that isn't anything new.

I can understand that your wife does not respond to calm talk and reasoning when she is in one of her states. But what about other times, when she is the calm, sensible and logical human being that (I expect) she normally is? What is her take on why she sometimes behaves in this irrational way?

She's embarrassed by her less-than-rational behavior and looks at it as a natural part of life.

I know that if I behaved like this, my husband would withdraw into his 'cave'. A huge disincentive to me, for sure!

I used to do that and let her calm herself down but I've learned that withdrawing into my cave is a very hurtful thing to do to a woman in a time of need.

I am not suggesting that you start hiding in a cave of your own. But can you think of ways of asserting your authority that do not involve spanking?

I can, and I am. Scolding is one example. "Taking charge" of her and being paternal is another, but I really do not like drifting into that mode. She isn't a child and I won't treat her like one.

Would your wife respond to non-physical measures, for instance corner-time or withdrawal of privileges?

Even if she were willing to go along with that kind of relationship, I am not. That is way too demeaning. I realize that there are many here who operate that way (perhaps including you) and I respect that. For me, however, that goes too far.

As far as spanking is concerned, to say that I 'get off' on it would be a simplification. Certainly not whilst it is happening ;-(( I realize there are couples for whom this is almost entirely erotic, and others who see it as 'pure discipline'. For me - and I suspect for most, probably including your wife - it is a little more complex.

... and this is the part I have the most trouble understanding. This is what I need to hear from you and other women in Taken in Hand relationships.

I will say that my wife is not turned on by the eroticism of spanking. In fact, that seems to be the whole point. If she liked it, we would have to find something else.

For us it is the context in which spankings occur which is all important - a quiet time just for the two of us in the haven that is our bedroom, with music playing.

We don't have children. Our entire house is our haven. Yes, I understand that it is really the context that makes it work.

You may think that this is too romantic a setting for 'discipline', and perhaps you are right.

Actually, I would like to find a way of making it *more* romantic, more "Rhett Butler" like. So if you have ideas about making it more romantic, please suggest.

However, it helps us get to the right place, a place where we feel connected and secure in each others' roles. And it most certainly does not prevent me from feeling my husband's authority and quiet purpose in disciplining me.

So let me reverse one of your earlier questions. What is it you are being punished for? Why does your husband feel that he needs to spank you? Why do need to be spanked?

If I am reading you correctly, it sounds like you two have a much greater level of inequality than I am trying to attain with my wife, which is fine. I'm asking this primarily so that I can frame it in the context of where I am trying to go with my wife.

She wants to be more submissive than I want to allow her to be. I am not willing to make all decisions, nor am I willing to allow her to be passive aggressive (where I make the decisions but they have be the "approved" decisions).

That, by the way, is one area where I am comfortable being a tough disciplinarian and using spanking to change her behavior as a true form of punishment.

No two couples are the same, and you and your wife have got to find your own way of 'connecting'. If spanking is important to your wife - even though she 'doesn't like it' - you will have to find a way of doing it in a way which is meaningful for both of you.

This is a very intriguing description "...important to her even though she doesn't like it...".

Spanking does not have to be a process that begins and ends in a set period of time. If your wife gets to the point where she feels she has 'had enough', why not stop and talk for a while, and hug her, before you (gently but perhaps firmly) continue?

Now *this* is a particularly *wonderful* suggestion!

I love the idea of a spanking to the point where she has had enough, then talking and hugging and then back over my lap for "part 2" of her spanking on *my* terms.

Part 1 would be to bring her to the point where she realizes she is out of control and is ready to say she is sorry.

Part 2 would be the punishment, where her having "had enough" is quite irrelevant.

Again, Nina, thank you.

First of all, I'm going to refer to my wife as "Elle". That's not her real name but it is a lot less stilted than saying "my wife" all the time.

HRT may be unfashionable, but the statistical risks associated with it are still very low.

It is very difficult to get a doctor to prescribe it. The knee-jerk response seems to be "you don't need that until you actually reach menopause". Unfortunately, Elle has a real problem being assertive with doctors (one of the few kinds of folks she has trouble asserting with).

# 3 I suffer from [self worth issues] at times too. My husband deals with this by telling me what a competent and beautiful woman I am, and reminds me of some of my past achievements. Usually works!

With Elle, this traditionally led to an argument with her finding tons of ways that I was wrong about her competence and achievements.

Over the past week, I've told her that she is just going to have to respect my judgment on those matters. I've also hinted that she will be punished if she continues to argue with me and refuses to accept my judgment about it.

That seemed to have a real comforting effect. In other words, she "has to" accept a compliment. It isn't her fault. It frees her from her need to argue about it.

I agree that many - myself + DH included - would find corner-time and loss of privileges 'demeaning'. I guess I was grasping at straws there...

Your conclusion that we have a 'greater level of inequality than (you are) trying to attain with (your) wife' is far off the mark! Our relationship, compared with many other DD couples, is very equal.

I drew that inference from the notion of "withdrawal of privileges" and "corner-time" figuring that you were drawing that from your own experience.

This is by choice - in fact my husband insists that he does not want me to obey him! [It dawned on me after about 15 years of frequent bickering (over emptying the dishwasher, doing the ironing and other such nonsense) that our lives would run more easily this way; funny thing is that since I let him have his way he has become so much more attentive to my needs. Go figure!]

That's not surprising. It gives him room to be able to be attentive. I'm guessing that a big part of it is respecting his autonomy.

Perhaps there is a middle ground for Elle and me, in the notion that *I* will decide *when* she is to defer to me versus when she has to take responsibility. That, by the way, would be *less* deferential than she wants to be.

You say that your wife 'is not turned on by the eroticism of spanking. In fact, that seems to be the whole point. If she liked it, we would have to find something else'. I do not understand - why would you have to find something else? Maybe if you could find some erotic connection, the 'intimate connection' between the two of you might also be enhanced!

She needs a form of punishment, i.e. a form of limit setting, that isn't enjoyable or erotic for her. If spanking were erotic in and of itself, it would not be "something she is required to do but does not want to do". Instead, it would be something she enjoyed in its own right.

The "threat" of a spanking allows her to absolve herself of responsibility by telling herself that she just *can't* do "it" (whatever "it" is) because if she did, she would be spanked.

Nagging, for example, is driven by her need to be in control and to make sure that everything around her goes "right". Because I've made it clear (in the past few days) that she will be spanked for nagging, she now doesn't have to do it. She can be blameless for things that don't go right because she wasn't allowed to nag.

I'm using spanking (at least on a trial basis) as a consequence for her behaving in a way that is contrary to what I will allow.

Why spanking? Because she repeatedly mentions it as a way in which she should be punished, (although her mentioning it is always done in a offhand way) and she repeatedly teases with it. In this case, "repeatedly" means a couple of times a month but it is much more frequent if I actually "take the bait" and tease back.

Example: a couple of weeks ago, she deliberately "blew off" a task I had asked her to do on her way home from work. I asked her if she had done it and she said that she was too tired.

When I became annoyed at her, she shrugged her shoulders and said, "I guess you'll have to spank me." (This was before I had spent any time on the TakenInHand website).

In addition, over the Easter weekend, I gave her a moderate spanking for something that wasn't that big of a "real issue". (I know I haven't mentioned that here but real time events are happening faster than I can write about them). It was an attempt to test the waters and see how she would react.

She responded reasonably well to the spanking.

On the one hand, I learned that she will take a "real" spanking if I insist on it *and* she responds passionately in the aftermath *and* she won't "threaten to run home to mother" (I'm using that as a cliché).

On the other hand, I also realized that spanking will work much better for real offenses (things that actually annoy me) than it will for play or trivial things. She reacted pretty well but she seemed uneasy about the idea that it would be used trivially.

On the third hand, it is clear that she can take a very hard hand spanking over her clothes. I don't need to worry much about "going too far", at least physically. My hand starts to get sore at about the time when it gets serious for her.

As far as punishment is concerned: I don't get punished! (a) my husband doesn't believe in it; (b) I'm far too well behaved ;-)...

I think the difference is that Elle wants to have the freedom to not be "well behaved" sometimes and know that there will be a finite punishment for it.

Seriously, though, the motivations for spanking are so difficult to verbalize - it really is not rational. My husband may say that I need it because I was disrespectful (a big no-no, but happens very rarely), or because I had a glass of wine without permission, but these are clearly not the real issues. ... Underlying all this is my need to be submissive and feel his authority. I would call it sensual rather than erotic. And somehow it seems to enhance the connection between us in an almost spiritual way.

I could make a snide comment here about how women are "so much better than men" at talking about their feelings... but I won't. ;)

Seriously, though, it is frustrating that so many women are unable to explain why and how they feel about this issue.

But there is real discipline mixed in there as well - somewhere.

"Discipline" but not "punishment"? Maybe if you could explain that distinction it would help.

I know I'm not making myself clear. I expect you wife's feelings are associated with similar confusions (though I expect they lie even deeper beneath the surface than mine).

Yes on both counts. Part of this is due to Elle's desire to not have to talk about it.

Also, I'm not sure about your plan for 'Part 2' - 'the punishment, where her having "had enough" is quite irrelevant'. I fear you might be treading on dangerous ground there - be sure to read her body language very carefully. And talk!

I know. Sometimes I'm more extreme when I'm talking about this then when I actually do it.

On the other hand, after Part 1 and after the hugs and talking, I think there needs to be a moment of non-consent: a moment of true punishment (a brief moment, perhaps) when she is *required* to feel the consequences, both of her actions and of her submission to me.

If she isn't willing to accept the consequences of submission, then she will *have to* talk to me about it.

But I think she is willing to accept the "trade off".

BTW: Elle and I will be out of town most of Friday through Sunday evening.