Don't feminists demand wages for housework any more? That used to be a rallying cry, did it not? Isn't that supportive of women wanting to be housewives? The laws of economics being what they are, it might cause problems, but it is intended to be supportive of women making that choice, isn't it?

I haven't heard anyone mention "wages for housework" for about 20 years! All I hear now is that men don't do their fair share.

Given the widely various meanings of the word "feminism," and the emotions that are aroused by some of those meanings, perhaps it is smart to qualify the word whenever it is used so people actually know what we are talking about. I don't go around calling myself a feminist for this reason; it's too easy for people to get the wrong idea.

Melanie

Tevemer said "The definiton of feminism in my dictionary is: the belief that men and women are intellectually and socially equal and that women should be given all the privileges, advantages and opportunities enjoyed by men."

That is the basic definition of feminism and that's what makes it wrong in my opinion.

I guess feminists will not understand how wrong this mentality is until we turn the tables in practice. When men are given "All the privileges, advantages and opportunities enjoyed by women" think about that for awhile and ponder a world like this, it would not be balance, it would be miserable for women and men, just like it was miserable in Tevemer's home when they tried to be equal. When they took on roles that's when they found happiness.

Sure there were problems with how things were in the past, but society had one thing right. Women had a place in society and men had a place that neither should infringe upon. When feminists saw gold in the new wealthy world, that's when it broke loose from the so called chains of men to gain its so-called liberty. What feminism really did is reveal its own selfishness and chain many women to the burdens men always faced. The world didn't need feminism to fix problems women faced, women needed to work together with men to fix problems, just like a husband and wife team does in a home.

Just like in the home where you need a balance for perfect harmony, the man is designed as the head, the woman as the submissive half (many of you have explained how beautiful that Taken In Hand relationship is). So also in society there must be a balance too where men have roles women cannot usurp and women have roles that men cannot usurp. What happens when you shift the balance with a political force such as feminism? It is inevitable you will get our modern day mess, a mess that will never change until women go back to their traditional roles and allow men to be in theirs as well. Men and women have great power in their respective roles.

Society is just like a home. Women must not step on the domain of men and men must respect the domain of women. Men naturally take care of women, women naturally want to be taken care of. We can have a happy home and all be equal and respected in it without feminist ideology.

Ramileous,

Wow! What a statement. I do not even know where to start commenting. I would like to point out that many people thought this same sort of thing before the industrial revolution, about giving the right to vote and equal social power to anyone who was not in the Upper Classes. They firmly believed that it was their God given destiny to be born in the upper classes and that everyone had their place in society and it was perfectly natural that they should be the only ones with social freedoms. Many people thought the same thing about black people too, that people with lighter skin had a right to a place in society, because they were born white. The same can be said for the Irish, Jews and other ethnic groups. People are people. Women are people. Because we are all human we all deserve the same rights and freedoms. Are you suggesting that we will have the most social harmony when the fewist people have all the rights? Maybe we should go back to a time when white, protestant, upperclass men were the only ones who had any civil rights? Or are you suggesting that only women do not deserve basic human rights?

I agree with you that families often work best when people decide how they will relate together. That said, I am not actually a supporter of a Traditional Marriage for me and my husband. If people are happy to be in a Traditional Marriage that is great. I think everyone should do what is right for them. A Tradional Marriage is not right for us. It is true that I have many traditional elements in my marriage, the biggest one being that I give my husband consent to be HOH. But my husband and I are both professionals, we both have educations, we share the task of raising our kids, we share the household chores and the cooking. We both mow the lawn and work in the yard. I can even program a VCR and change the oil in my car! We have a very happy marriage dispite its non-tradional elements. You are right that people are often happy when they know their places. My husband and I do know our places in our marriage, but we have roles that we defined for ourselves, not ones that were forced on us. My consent to him is powerful, because I give it to him freely, not because I am forced to give it to him. I do not think you can have a Taken in Hand relationship without this very important freely given consent. I am also not so egotistical and short sighted to think that because a Taken in Hand relationship works for me, it will work for everyone. I know it will not work for everyone. Everyone needs to find out for themselves what works for them. If we want harmony in our marriages and in our families we all need to do what is best for us.

I do not think society's problems have been cause by the gaining of basic rights for women. I think many of our problems are caused by materialism, more and more people trying to have more and more stuff and not spending enough time and effort with thier families and communities. I do not agree that the world is a mess. I think that there are a lot of good things happening out there. I know there are problems, but I am hopeful that we will be able to solve them. One of the ways to solve them, I think, is to put or communities and families first; this can be done without stripping away the rights of half of society. Subjugating people will not help us, it only creates hatred and fear.

Take care,
Tevemer

Stephen wrote:

To suggest as confusedofhome argued that the only real difference between men and women is that women can become pregnant is patently absurd

I think you may have misunderstood what I said. And maybe I didn't make it all that clear (I plead lack of sleep and a bad case of nerves last night). I wrote:

The only roles that cannot be usurped are directly to do with pregnancy and childbirth

I was talking only about things that cannot be changed. Short of some rather extreme genetic modification programs, men cannot get pregnant, and women cannot make anyone pregnant. Beyond that, unless I have overlooked something (still pleading lack of sleep, but the nerves went this morning), everything else is a matter of degree. Men may not, generally, be better nurturers than women, but they can still do it - even if not as well. Women may not, generally, be as strong as men, but they can still lift things - even if not as heavy. And drop them on their toes. Sorry, slight digression there.

My jobs to date have been in either gender-neutral roles, or roles that are usually seen as "men's jobs". Some of this is because of where my own strengths lie, and some of this is simply what circumstances brought about. I have more choice in my life than my mum did, and even more than my gran did. And I haven't had to fight for any of these freedoms - previous generations have done that for me.

BUT I do think things have gone too far - and in trying to redress imbalances in one area have simply caused them in others. To use a worn phrase - it's been like using a sledgehammer to crack a nut.

I don't want to see a return to the old ways (whichever lot of old ways we're talking about). Nor do I want things to carry on as they are. I don't want it to become fashionable for women to not work and instead to be homemakers. And I don't want it to be the done thing that every woman in a career has to try and break the glass ceiling for fear of letting the side down if she doesn't. I want to see the day when men and women can choose how they want their relationships - including work - to run, without fear of judgement or pressure to follow the crowd. I wonder if it will happen before my 6 year old nieces are great grandparents?

I know this has been rather long, and it could have been longer still. But to summarise, I am neither a feminist (in the radical "bad" sense of the word, nor possibly in any other), nor am I a traditionalist. Optimist and idealist, maybe, though.

--

"There is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so" Hamlet, somewhere.

If I have a daughter, I will also want her to make a choice. If she wants to have a career, then by all means she can go to school and build her career. But as soon as she has sex and gets pregnant, her duty is to that child and the family. This is why God ordained marriage, traditional marriage. Because to protect the future, we cannot ignore our responsibilities in the name of liberty. When we make choices we have to live by them. Women of the past knew this, and they also had little choice but to raise the family they helped create. Society was built on giving priority to men in the workplace to provide for families, and giving priority to women in the home to nurture the next generation. Traditional marriage is not something you choose, it should be the result of your choice to start a family.

Today, women are free not because of their own labor, but because of the wealth created for them by generations past. By the sacrifice of mothers and fathers who sacrificed their lives for their offspring.

So what about all this equality? Why aren’t women flocking to the jobs traditionally held by men? Probably because those jobs are hard labor, women want the good jobs that get them the easiest or most fulfilling career. Some women will say, well men choose to work those jobs, women choose theirs. If men chose to do women’s work, who would build society? The truth is that women do not want to be the laborers or cannon fodder (traditional male positions) it is feminists who want to be the upper class and leaders. These women who want to rise to the top, have made it much harder for women who want to raise families and enjoy doing women’s work (being a mother, a wife).

Cannon fodder? Hard Labor? A feminist might say “Men start the wars so they can fight them” or “Men created poverty so they can get us out of it”

Interesting that it is feminists who claim that for every great man in history there was a woman who influenced him. I wonder why feminists do not admit that for every bad man there was a woman who influenced him? Guess that wouldn’t fit their agenda huh? The truth is that men don’t start wars, wars are a part of civilizations as they bicker and battle for survival. Every woman leader in history has had majority male armies ready to fight under her command, do feminists want armies of females? Poverty and War is not of men it is of mankind, but men work and fight because they want to protect their women and children, how is that for fair ladies?

Who favors abortion the most? Feminists do because its about the freedom of a woman to choose. What happens if society were to give that same right to men? You guessed it, women would not have the freedom and privilege anymore, that’s why feminists fight tooth and nail to keep men from the same privileges women enjoy today. In fact feminists want more rights and privileges for women that men apparently enjoy.

Radical Feminists hate marriage and motherhood because its completely against their agenda to make society equal and they know it. Then there are the professing traditional feminists who claim to want equal rights with men but still have the same privileges enjoyed by women. These feminists will always be a political group think. Meaning they will only focus on women’s rights forgetting entirely the rights and privileges of men.

Gender and Traditional feminists have knowingly and unknowingly undermined family and society in the process of securing everything they can for women.

Were there injustices to women in the past? Of course there were, but there were just as many men who suffered as did women because of injustices. So why the feminist movement then and not a mens movement? People were not perfect and made mistakes. However they didn’t need feminism to undermine and blame men. Men and women needed each other to fix the problems. Remember, feminism by definition is about equal rights for women, that is a political machine that can never get enough to eat, people just don’t get it yet.

Back then when people made a choice they usually lived by them. They did not throw life or responsibility out like yesterdays trash as so many of us do today. The concept of freedom has deceived our minds so much that we have forgotten what morals and responsibilities are in the first place.

If I am sexist for wanting to see society go back to the day when life was important, duty was honorable, responsibility to choices was upheld, marriage was for life and between a man and women, well then call me a sexist all you want. You may say I have the mentality of pre-industrial oppressive upper-class white man. However I am a man who can see plenty of women above him, and they sure as hell don’t seem to care about anyone but themselves. Amazing how those feminist women have learned so much of the past, yet they are just like the men from the past they grew to hate. Want to talk about sexism? then lets talk more about feminism!

After reading the excellent post by Tevemer about how her feminism supports her loving male-led marriage as her *choice,* it was profoundly disheartening to read the rest of the thread. "Gender" feminism, indeed! And that from someone proposing the Independent Women's Forum as a voice for mainstream women. Tevemer's post deserved something more than the usual far-right blather about how feminism is responsible for the downfall of humanity. Nothing will turn off women considering the choice of a male-led relationship faster than a lot of rightwing religious proselytizing.

Well, if my woman used the "F-word" -- for feminism -- I'd respond with the "P-word." For "paddle." And I'd apply it where it would do the most good.

Reviling feminists today without looking at what has been accomplished is a lot like hating the word "revolutionary" but not looking at the fact that there was an American Revolution. Because today a lot of revolutionaries are far left, looking to tear society and legitimate government apart, does that mean we should go back to pre-Revolution status quo and revert to being a British colony?

(Maybe I'd be in favor of that since I've always liked men with British accents. LOL).

If it weren't for the early feminists women wouldn't have the vote. We wouldn't be able to own our own property and get jobs. Men who find themselves on economic hard times (downsized!) are extremely happy that their wives are now ALLOWED to go out there and bring home the bacon. Otherwise nobody eats. Do you think your crying babies care who brought home the paycheck when they are hungry?

Like in a lot of other areas, political correctness has gone too far. But we now have a choice. People who are happy in HOH marriages can live in them. People who are happy in shared-decision marriages (believe it or not, lots of us are happy in them) are free to live that way. Wanting to take away any group's hard won rights and go back to the bad old days when everyone knew his place, sure doesn't sound loving and caring to me.

You don't have to like feminists and you don't have to date or marry them. Your choice! You are entitled to make your choice but you aren't entitled to take away someone else's choices.

So who's afraid of the Big Bad Feminist Wolf?

What a can of worms has been opened by a simple word such as feminism! It’s been interesting reading people’s different views. I would like to add a few of my own. First many women in the UK carry a sense of guilt if they have to work while raising children. While at work, they worry about the welfare of their children and cannot wait to get home to be with them but often while at home worry that they do not have enough money to give them the material benefits of life they feel their children need. Whether children need these material things is another debate!

I do wonder if this is the right thing to do for many women when society, at least in the UK, has been proven to be becoming more aggressive. Is it the guilt that both men and women feel by not being able to be themselves and feeling trapped in a role which does not suit their basic belief system? Personally I would prefer to stay at home to raise my children but economics would more than likely dictate for me to work and therefore I know, when and if the time comes, I would carry the guilt burden. Not to mention that most employers frown up women in the workplace with children. They often ask women to put their work first and make snide comments when you need time off to take your child to see the doctor etc. They also only give women 90% pay while on maternity leave.

I have had experiences of feeling belittled by other women because I do not consider myself to be a career woman and only work at jobs where I have enough money to pay my bills and enjoy the company of my colleagues. I dislike working for women in management as they always feel they are better than me because they have climbed further up the career ladder. I have had one woman in a position of authority feel angry because one of her staff said to her that she was not going to have anymore children and then a year later booked maternity leave for another child. I still feel that we are being forced to a make a choice of go to work and climb the career ladder or stay home and raise your kids and feel guilty if you do so.

Having said this I do believe we have evolved well and the freedom of choice is the most powerful freedom of all but I think we are taking away men’s rights at the same time for e.g. child access for divorced fathers. As women were supported in society years ago to obtain their rights etc, I now believe men need our support to define their position in society.

I would like to comment on Stephen’s thoughts below

Recent studies, which I do not have at the ready to quote, are showing that men who stay at home with children are not providing their children with the same quality of care. I consider myself a good father, but I never had the same ability to nurture my kids as their mother did.

Never underestimate the power of a father/child relationship. My parents were married 34 years until death separated them but if they had of divorced and the choice was mine as to who to live with, I wouldn’t have hesitated – my Dad. To say the mother is always the best child carer is wrong. It depends on the individuals involved.

I believe rather than treating men and women as equals, when in my view we are clearly not, I think we should value one and another’s differences and work together to make this world a better place fore everyone in it.

KrosRogue,

I am not sure I understand how believing in equal rights under the law for women has anything at all to do with being feminine? I would have thought it would mean more to a man when a woman chooses to be submissive and follow his lead, than if she was force to or felt obligated to do so. My husband takes my submission as a gift to be cherished because he knows I give it of my own free will, even when I know the options that are out there for me. I am by no means a man, or even manly; I do believe that women have the right to vote, the right to own property, the right to be a person under the law. My husband wants an intelligent woman with a mind of her own. It makes my submission to him as HOH all that more special.

Tev

I believe that a lot of things that feminism claims for itself are nothing of the sort. There is nothing 'feminist' about legal and career equality between the sexes for instance. This is simple common sense and a human right. There is no need to buy into the 'men are s**t women are victims' mentality to believe this.

Feminism is a definite ideological position that is dedicated to the destruction of 'patriarchy' (private property, family and representative democracy). It is hoped that these things will be replaced by communal/ tribal sort of setup where children are brought up by the state and where decisions are made by 'consensus' rather than by the election of representatives.

None of this has anything whatever to do with equality between the sexes- and it is opposed completely to Taken in Hand. It has also resulted in famine and tyranny wherever it has been tried.