A black and white issue?

Just smile and tell them that you are very happy, and that you and your husband love and respect one another, which is important in a marriage.

And please don't think you are sick! Following your heart is the way to health and wholeness as well as joy. Don't let well-meaning but misguided family members take that away from you!

My man and I have your problem in reverse. I am white and he is black. A rather large intimidating black man. *grins* We have a traditional HOH/DD marriage. It works very well for us. He and I definitely are aware of, and have gotten quite a few laughs at, the reversal of historic roles. =0)

We do deal with your dilemma quite often. Both having been raised by staunch feminists in California. The truth is, I fought it for a long time myself, thought I was crazy. Since I followed my heart, I have never been happier.

We have had quite a few people, including his mother who has a doctorate in psychology, question our dynamic. I basically just try to answer any questions to the best of my ability as open and honestly as possible.

Most of our family is used to it by now, and those that aren't, live in another state. *smiles*

One of my sisters thought for the longest time that I was going to wake up one day and realize how 'repressed' and 'controlled' I was, and decide I wanted out. I gave her an article I found, and she did a complete about face. Sometimes providing them with a means to discover your reasons for themselves is the easiest way to go.

The thing most people refuse to understand though, is that I asked for this. Begged for it in fact. I introduced the idea to my husband once I realized my 'craziness' wasn't going to resolve itself. And most importantly, that I never looked back. I have the sweetest, most loving, strong, and capable husband there is. A lot of women see what we have and want it for themselves, not realizing that the dynamic is the key.

Have patience, discuss their fears with them, and continue to live by example... I wish you the best.

-Misty

Personally, I think it would make me slightly uneasy if my relationship was causing a lot of comment among friends and relations etc. However, most of the time my husband and I just relate to each other like normal people, I mean I don't go around being ostentatiously submissive or anything, so most of the time there isn't a lot for people to notice.

And it certainly wouldn't be true in my case to say that I never snap at my husband or get irritable with him, I quite often do (and so, I expect, did 50s wives as well). I like it when my husband gets firm with me and stops me being sulky or petulant or whatever, but he has to do this quite often, our relationship is not one of unruffled calm.

Your relationship sounds absolutely idyllic, but it is nothing like mine, so I don't know how I would feel if I was in your position. I definitely would dislike the attention though.

Louise

Elly, why do you feel the need for your friends and family to know your most intimate private desires? Is it not in truth a private matter?

If you feel the need to parade your intimate details before the eys of your friends and family, you are 'asking' for them to object vociferously. Keep these matters private, for they are indeed private, and you wil have no further trouble.

Wait a minute -- Elly already said that she and her husband "don't do anything obvious in public", so it seems a bit out of line to suggest that they're "parading their intimate private details" for the eyes of others. From her original post I gathered that what her family and friends are picking up on is just her respectful or deferential attitude towards her husband; and probably they notice it because it's so very different from their own attitudes. (Given how prevalent man-bashing and contempt for masculinity has become in our culture.) I agree with the advice that she does not really owe anyone any explanations or justifications for having a wonderful marriage. All they need to know is that both Elly and her husband feel happy and fulfilled in their marriage. Period.

In any case, how private or how public any couple wishes to be about the Taken In Hand aspects of their marriage is entirely up to them to decide, and not anyone else. I'm disturbed by what seems to be a common attitude here, that a male-controlled marriage is such a strange and shocking thing that we should all be hiding out in the closet, to keep anyone from finding out how terrible we are. Or something like that. I mean, hell's bells! -- This is more like a traditional "old fashioned" marriage than anything else. Why in the world should that be kept secret and people who have that kind of marriage feel compelled to act furtively, as if it's something to go sneaking around with, and hoping nobody will suspect? If it's something that we feel good about and are maybe even proud of, then the ideal situation would be that we could be completely open about it with everyone.

Of course, I'm not saying that will always be the optimal thing in practice. Because there are a lot of prejudices and misconceptions out there now; thanks largely to the excessive influence of radical feminism. Those biases can make things difficult for some people more than others, when it comes to things like jobs or child custody, or other social involvements. So the extent to which any given Taken In Hand couple feels comfortable being open about the nature of their relationship is entirely a matter of individual circumstances and the preference of each specific couple; that is, something to be decided between the husband and wife. (And even if the decision is ultimately the man's to make, if he's a wise leader, then he will not choose to do anything that entails unnecessary risks or puts his wife in a position of much discomfort.)

I just don't think it's up to any of us to be making that decision for other couples, or tsk-tsking at them if they choose to be more open about the nature of their marriage than others of us would choose. As I said in another thread on this forum, the only way that society is going to change its attitudes is if more couples are willing to come forward and make it clear that this is a natural, healthy, happy and wholesome way to engage in a loving romantic relationship. As long as everyone is hanging out in the dark corners of a closet somewhere, cringing in fear that someone somewhere may discover that the husband is (gasp!) in control of his wife, then the misconceptions and prejudices will continue to linger and make trouble for everyone.

And, by the way, there is a clear and obvious parallel here to interracial marriage itself, which was considered shocking until enough people were doing it and being open about it that it ceased to raise an eyebrow. Or we could compare it to gay couples in romantic relationships. For how many long years did they feel compelled to hide in the closet, fearful of anyone learning or guessing the nature of their relationships? How many gay lovers got introduced as "friends" and felt they had to put on a fake front for the world? Are we not glad that those days are mostly over now? I could also draw the comparison to pagan religions; because pagans today are still being treated with prejudice and suspicion on a regular basis, when it comes to jobs and child custody and other issues; despite the rapid rate at which pagan religions are undergoing a vast rebirth today.

In all of these instances, I think it helps society as a whole for people to be as open as they feel they can, without creating undue risks for themselves. I wish that people were different, of course. How great it would be if the vast majority of people were just able to think sensibly about such things: "Hmm, this is pretty harmless, so I guess there's nothing wrong with it. Okay!" Sadly, however, the vast majority seem to be sheeple, who are only capable of following along where others have led. So if they start seeing more examples of the "shocking" thing -- whether it be gay lovers or pagan clergy or interracial couples or Taken In Hand marriages -- then that's what most people need in order to start shedding their irrational prejudices. So to whatever extent we can do our part in helping society to wake up (or grow up, really), the better.

The first challenge, it seems to me, is to get people to be more accepting of (a) Consensual but unequal relationships and (b) whatever harmless and consensual sexual ideas a couple wishes to explore in the privacy of their own home. But is there anything wrong with just acting naturally in your relationship, to the extent that it becomes obvious to others that the man is the boss in your marriage? No, there is nothing wrong with that at all. It's up to each couple to decide how explicit or how subtle they wish for his control to be, when they're out in public or among family and friends.

I would like to thank Elly for her original post on this; because, difficulties with family members aside, she gave us a lovely portrait of a Taken In Hand marriage that has deepened and enhanced the respect and love and romance. And that is the main point -- the beautiful and happy and inspiring point -- never to be lost in all the confusing muddles and challenges of dealing with a world that refuses to understand.

You are my kind of woman DeeMarie. You've got it right. Elly and her husband are going down the right road together in their perspective and actions. We are here to support them. One thing I would add is that family and friends can come in between a couple and it is important to affirm each other openly -- together and apart in conversations with family and friends. It is important that Elly and her husband make vibrantly clear to family and friends that they are united in their viewpoint. This is best done very quietly and firmly.

Around the time *Loving v. Virginia* declared anti-miscegenation statutes in the United States to be unconstitutional, it became evident that, in addition to the black and white issue, interracial couples faced the same problems as everyone else. Thus, cultural differences and prejudice were additional obstacles to overcome.

Although judgmentalism may have diminished, the conflict of values is still with us. A divisive cultural clash does not always have to be interracial to be a problem.

My wife came from a line of college-educated women - dating back to a time when many women in the United States did not have a high school diploma. Despite giving birth to multiple generations, these were women unaccustomed to being *the little lady of the house*!

In spite of our early marital difficulties, my wife and I displayed sufficient affection to make my mother-in-law uncomfortable. At the time, although she was quite aware that her daughter had been soundly spanked once by me, she was unaware that her daughter's marriage was on the verge of collapse within months after the ink dried on the marriage certificate.

Still very much in love with my wife, I paid her attention. Superficially, my wife reciprocated.

Very much a product of a cultural environment in which affections were supressed, my mother-in-law thought there should be *respectability* between married couples.

As with my mother, I never saw my mother-in-law kiss her husband. I do not remember either couple holding hands. Consequently, absent erudition by other means, it might have been possible to believe that both my wife and I originally arrived in our respective mother's arms by way of *the stork*!

Much like my wife, my mother-in-law could be disputatious. If she did not like something, she would sharpen her tongue and find a way to express her dissatisfaction.

Several years after my wife and I straightened out our marriage, my mother-in-law privately made an artful comment to me. Less than tactfully, I informed her that *she* needed to have her bare buttocks spanked!

As my then middle-aged mother-in-law beat a hasty retreat, she retorted *that* was never going to happen. Nevertheless, she was more circumspect in her comments and our relationship greatly improved.

When I told my wife about the verbal intrigue, she observed with a simper that - although quite true - her mother had probably never been told that to her face!

I have since concluded that my mother-in-law did not wish to earlier pursue the matter because she dreaded the thought that her husband - who was had just left our presence - might get *ideas*. After all, like is wife, he had overheard the first spanking that I have their daughter when we were dating several years earlier!

Beyond the little fifteen-second exchange with my mother-in-law, the longevity and tranquility of her daughter's marriage - as marriages of several of her children, nieces, and nephews ended in sometimes-acrimonious divorce - greatly improved my mother-in-law's disposition. Decades later, she finally acknowledged her daughter and I had found a better way to deal with marital problems than others of our generation.

For decades - although almost no one outside her side of the family knows that my wife has been seriously spanked - other people have noticed that there is something different about my wife. She has a disposition that causes men to confide in her and motivates other women to ask *what does she have* going for her that keeps her husband so attentive.

One man, with whom we frequently do business, told me that he would like to clone my wife and take the replica home with him! Little does he know what it took to make my wife so desirable.

Succinctly put - although my wife admits things could have turned out differently if her husband had not put a few bruises on buttocks early in our marriage - she is not a bitch. Her shrew within has been tamed. The inside dragon no longer breaths fire.

At the same time, my wife is not cravenly submissive. She will speak her mind. Such a woman can be difficult to fathom for those unacquainted with the benefits of *Taken in Hand*.

Either a woman taken in hand by her husband fascinates other women or else her respect for her husband fuels their enmity. When a woman threatens other women with her *je ne sais quoi* (that "I know not what" quality that defies explicit description), they will try to co-opt her into being like them - thus, removing the threat to their domestic bitchery.

This problem can be exacerbated by a cultural clash - be it from reactionary or subversionary orientation.

*Political correctness* elevated the ages old *battle of the sexes* into a full blast cultural war. Despite evidence of marital carnage and resulting childhood dysfunction, the assault on tradition continues.

While there is no easy solution to every marital difficulty, one truism remains. It is still hard to argue with success. Moreover, success in marriage tends to silence the critics.

As Frank Sinatra famously observed, "The best revenge is massive success." Thus, in the end, *Taken in Hand* couples often enjoy much coveted warmth and sanity in marriage.

As usual, my response to this subject would have been far more hostile, should Shelly's response not have occurred before mine.

Bear in mind I still have an extremely hostile attitude toward your situation. Suffice it to say that Shelly has moderated my reply considerably.

That said, your initial response should be moderated by her suggestions. If this fails, I would pursue a more violent approach; perhaps a "temper tantrum" or something similar. Let everyone know that, while you "appreciate" their concern, your choice of your lifestyle is YOUR concern, NOT theirs. Note that your desire for your personal pursuits are TRULY yours, and they establish your personal self in a position of power to chase after your own goals in spite of those which others may set before you.

Subsequent to the tantrum, it may be beneficial for them to see your husband bring you under control. Let them see how you respond to him. This may assist in their seeing your side of the story.

After all, this is YOUR life and YOUR happiness that hangs in the balance. Let NO ONE obstruct you from your chosen path.

Mick McCleod