Speaking for myself, I don't wear trousers because I wish to be more masculine, but because I find them comfortable to wear, and more practical. I think both men and women look better in trousers than in skirts. It's nothing to do with gender but simply to do with comfort and convenience, not to mention warmth, a not unimportant consideration in our chilly English winters (dresses are draughty).

And although there may be more pressure on women to be thin nowadays, slimness has always been the ideal for women, you can see this in paintings from all ages, going right back to Ancient Egypt, where all the women portrayed are slim. Slender women have always been considered the most attractive. You don't have to try and live up to the ideal of course, but nevertheless the image of the slender woman has been prevelent through the ages.

Louise

There are a number of articles, comments and opinions expressed about a couple of books. Do we as women need advice on if, when or how to express our feminine graces? It seems to me that we have "evolved", with intuition, flexibility and instinct. We all, each and everyone of us know how to turn it on, or turn it off.

Times are changing, like a pendumlum on its way back. The masculine image that many woman chose to express served a purpose, opened doors and improved equality in the world of business. To learn "the" game, or perhaps "their" game it was a case of play by their rules. Both men and women had a difficult time adjusting to woman assuming responsible roles in business.

Now, with a foot firmly in the door woman are more comfortable putting their feminine foot forward, making changes to the way businesses are run, starting their own businesses and yes! dressing in bright colors, skirts, frills and spiky heels if they choose. There are of course those who prefer a pair of jeans, flat shoes and that too can look very sexy!

I sincerely believe that my daughter's challenges will be quite different from mine or my mother's, but like us she will know when to play the feminine, or not!

Actually, Louise, (by the way, I love all your posts. I'm quite a fan.) Slim has not always been the ideal for women at all. In fact, that is relatively modern. Roughly since the age of enlightenment, actually. (bit ironic, that). In Africa heavier women, (not fat, but thick waisted and hardy) is ideal, because it means they are strong, and well fed, which is important. All of the portraits of greek and roman and even renaissance women are all thick and curvy and larger because it showed you were healthy and could bear children. Being skinny in any age (for men as well) was a sign of ill-health, or barrenness in women (which it wasn't, but that's what they thought). And as to portraits in acient Egypt... well, there was a distinct artistic style. Shoulders, slim down to the hips, then legs. It was a style, not an accurate representation. Statues and and sculptures of Egyptian goddesses actually show that they were depicted as also as curvy, strong women. Or a fat smiling hippo, for childbirth.

I know this has nothing to do with the above article, I just wanted to correct your statement. I'm involved very much in women's studies, and try all I can to erase the all-to-common conception that women have been slender all through history.

Well, I didn't actually mean that women have been slim throughout history, but that slender women have always been the ideal. Obviously most women don't mesure up to the artistic ideal. But nevertheless, in art throughout history you see women are routinely portrayed as slim. There seems to have been a vogue for fleshy women in art in the 17th/18th centuries, but the overwhelming impression I get is that women in art are portrayed as slim, though the degree of slimness may vary. I don't think this bears any relation to what women looked like in real life, any more than today's photographs of skinny models and actresses bears any relation to the way most women look. But the way slender women are portrayed in art suggests to me that it has always been considered an atrribute of female beauty in Western art.

All the statues of Egyptian goddesses I have ever seen portray them as slim (though probably they wouldn't be considered slim by the standards of today's ultra-thin models) apart from Tawaret the hippopotamus-headed goddess of childbirth, who usually seems to be quite fleshy. And women in Greek paintings are all slim, the ones I've seen anyway. Women in medieval art seem to be overwhelmingly on the slim side. I get the impression that slimness is something that has mostly been the artistic ideal, though not all women were expected to adhere to the ideal. I think today's ideal of slenderness has gone way too far, but I think it is only an exaggeration of what has generally been considered attractive. I don't know how many women in the past would have bothered to try and measure up to the perceived ideal, as opposed to the numbers who strive for it now, though I understand that there are documented cases of annorexia from the Elizabethan period.

Of course, in the Edwardian period you get very curvy women, but they mostly seem to have big bosoms and hips and tiny waists, and that must have been a difficult thing to achieve, I imagine women who wanted to measure up to that must have had themselves squeezed painfully tight to achieve those waists. and then there's Renoir's fleshy women, he certainly seems to have liked them well-covered. I do get a general impression though that for msot of history women in Western art have been shown as on the slim side.

Louise

Sorry, but I don't think Fascinating Womanhood has anything to do with being taken in hand. It's about being 'feminine', sweet, helpless, flattering the male ego and deferring to a man (except for limiting the amount of sex he can have with you). In short, it is about playing games of a kind that I am completely incapable of playing. It is not about takeninhand. It is about how to make a man love you by being the kind of woman he wants (Mrs Andelin takes it for granted that all men want exactly the same kind of woman). Be this kind of woman and the man you marry will worship and adore you and buy you lots of things (there is a strongly mercenary note running through the book, women reel of lists of objects they have been bought as a result of adopting the tactics recommended by the author).

Reading this book would not have done anything to make takeninhand seem more attractive to me, in fact if I had read it when I first discovered this site, and come to the conclusion that it was what Taken In Hand was all about, it would have totally put me off the whole thing, permanently.

Louise

Hi Louise,

I agree with you about wearing pants,

"Speaking for myself, I don't wear trousers because I wish to be more masculine, but because I find them comfortable to wear, and more practical. I think both men and women look better in trousers than in skirts."

The right-cut of pants look great on women, sometimes better than skirts! However it is the widespread promotion of the 'masculine cut' I find objectionable.

Yes, slimness is feminine - however it is the genetically rare body type of tallness, broad shoulders and ultra skinniness that is over represented in the media that is not healthy.

Thanks for your comments!
Kelleigh

Autumn I would be interetsed how you characterized yourself. Could you please pass some words about you?

Hali

Please no exact query answer. Your view of yourself and your world, please

Hali

I must apologize for having bad intentions when I asked you for your expose and I am aware of making you to post something like confession was not gentle of me. Thank you once more, it was really interesting to read your post.

I read again your previous posts on this thread and tried to realize what provoked me. I think that it is the notion of femininity taken as something that can be managed. I think it cannot. You can only the femininity in yourself let free or you can keep it from exhibiting. But what if it is not in you? What if the described instructions urge you to lame yourself?

I know most men prefer feminine women but my experience is also that men appreciate me understanding them being able speak with the as peer. That is what I am. My mind is half way woman an man. I hate some women getting at me for being not enough feminine.

And if I followed the instructions (purring etc.) a would fake my husband.

And not to mistake, I crave for submission.

Hali

I use Lingea Lexicon. Nice morning

Hali

Direct questions may block out deeper thoughts not precisely formulated.

I think now I am coming near to the core, your last post helped me in that. You say "improve" about being more feminine. You say "we have no problems talking about our deepest feelings" and you conclude not being able this some people (me and Louise) are not able to live submission. In the mentioned thread you accused Louise for being a bad housewife. In this thread you suggested that if a woman loves her man she tries to be the woman he wants. This made me to ask who you are. Are you any special? Are you happy he wants this speciality?

If the answer is yes, than you are happy, you are lucky.
If the answer is not (I don't believe), who for God's sake you are?

It is not wise to show off your luck. And other are not nocent for being other.
Hali

I don´t know if you really read what I wrote. When did I ever accuse you and Louise of not being able to live your submission? I wrote exactly this: "I don´t only crave submission I live it". And that`s exactly what I meant by it, I did not mean that you and Louise are not able to live your submission. I do believe though that a lot of couples have problems of talking honestly with each other and that`s why they are not able to live out their submission. Whether you and Louise live it out as much as you want it, I don`t know and truthfully I don`t care.
I did have the impression of Louise being a bad housewife but only because Louise mentioned more than once that she hates cooking ,cleaning and that her kids get on her nerves a lot, that as a matter of fact they are filthy all the time. But after asking her about it, she explained how she ment it and said that she actually likes staying home with her kids and that they are doing good in school and are happy, so there`s is nothing more to say to that. I wouldn`t call it accusing, I was just wondering and so were other people by the way.
I have my opinion about things and you have yours. You ask, I gave you my answers. And yes I believe I`m special, I`m told many times by my husband and my children. I wouldn`t say I´m totally happy every minute of my life, but all together I`m quite happy and satisfied with myself and my family. Any more questions?

Autumn

I forgot to mention this Hali, I love your quotes. By the way one of my favorite quotes is: "I get enough exercise pushing my luck" and my husband says it fits to me just perfect.

Autumn

Speaking for myself, I don't care about fashion at all. My husband doesn't either, he prefers me to wear clothes that reveal as much of myself as possible, but fashion as such doesn't interest him at all. I don't wear makeup, and have never met a man who expressed any desire for me to do so. My mother used to wear a lot, and my father disliked it ("why do you always put all that claggy muck on your face?" he used to grumble at her). And I don't wear perfume because my husband has an extremely acute sense of smell and dislikes most perfumes intensely (when we're out he's always complaining that some woman or other smells really disgusting, I can never smell anything). However, I may not be 'feminine' as described by Mrs Andelin, but I seem to fascinate my husband as I am. I don't think behaving in the fashion recommended by Mrs Andelin is the only way to fascinate a man. For some women, I think it is possible to fascinate a man by just being yourself.

Louise

I don't wear pretty clothes all the time. I've tried to save us money by not being a fashionista. Anyhow I never was a fad follower so I can't bother myself about fashion, just what I like and feel comfortable in. I also rarely wear perfume. A lot of people have allergies so I have gotten out of the habit, for instance last year I worked in an office where perfume wasn't allowed anyway. I used to love the earthy scents like patchouli. Can't be bothered anymore if people are going to fall down around me hacking for breath!

The other night I put on some perfume and my husband didn't notice it at all. So there is surely no point in bothering.

I always hated makeup except when I was too young to be wearing it. Then it was daring to wear it to school and see if I would get caught. I wear lipstick sometimes for an occasion. That's it.

Femininity is what's inside my head, not on my body or on my face.

"Pat"

The purpose of Fascinating Womanhood is not to provide a set of rigid rules that define femininity but to provide inspiration. Trying to be or act like something you're not would make you appear false.

I work with a woman in an executive role. She is one of the most feminine women I know. She has a soft voice, very long blonde hair, wears feminine styles and she 'coo's and purrs'. That's right - she coo's and purrs at work! and we all love her! This behavior does not seem odd because it is so natural to her. Now if I were to try the same behavior I'm sure I would appear really stupid because this behavior is not natural for me. Although I do not coo and purr I am naturally girly, so the trait of childlikeness discussed in FW comes naturally to me and does not appear odd. My husband loves it when I am girlish, his face softens, his eyes glisten…he tells me how cute I am. But it's not for everyone...

Quoting from my blog,

No person can be put in a box and labeled with a certain temperament or personality type. Our individual natures are much more complex than that....to aid our understanding of temperament and personality, scientists have defined four temperament types and 16 personality types common to humanity. People are usually a mixture of the four temperament types rather than being of just one type. Commonly a person will be dominant in one or two of the temperament types....

The nature of a person (whether feminine or masculine) is composed of their character, temperament and personality. Character makes-up our moral nature and can be changed and developed. When discussing the feminine nature we are usually referring to temperament and personality types that are common to feminine women.

Scientists who study temperament and personality consider that temperament is inherited and therefore cannot be changed. Personality on the other hand, which is influenced by gender-socialization, culture, upbringing and so on, is amenable to change and development much like the character. Although our temperament type may be a constant feature of our personal makeup, it is believed that our strengths of temperament can be developed and weaknesses can be minimized. The adage “feed your strengths and starve your weaknesses” would apply here.

In order to understand the difference between the constructs of temperament and personality one commentator has described it this way,

Think of temperament as the canvas and personality as the painting. The temperament is the foundation, the personality the building. Taking your basic temperament, you add life experience, culture, education, and upbringing to form your personality. To illustrate the breadth of diversity of the feminine nature, I have constructed two hypothetical feminine temperaments and corresponding personality types that are quite different one from the other...

I spoke to a lady who took the Fascinating Womanhood Classes back in the 1960's. Her explanation provides a good context for interpreting FW:

If someone wants to really improve their lives...they will trust that many of the principles set forth in FW are very ancient, and were taught by our great grandmothers. Our generation recognized them as such, and that is why some of the things in the book rang true to us when the classes were first offered.

FW is somewhat dated yet "..the basic principles still hold as true today as saying 'please' and 'thank you'".

Perhaps Marabel Morgan meant "obey" when she said "adapt" but I have a feeling it means something more like "adjust."

Years ago my parents (now deceased) went into couples therapy. My mother had a lot of complaints about my father. Truth to tell, he was an honest, hardworking husband but a most difficult and temperamental man.

The counselor told my Mom that she had to "adjust" to my father. This didn't mean obeying him but it meant she was supposed to get used to him doing things his way and not try to change him even if the things he did were objectionable to her.

I have a feeling that's closer to the "adapt" concept than out and out obedience to the husband.

"Pat"

While the degree of slimness has certainly varied a lot over the centuries, the impression I get, from looking at art in Western Civilisation, is that slimness in women has mostly been considered the ideal.

And while most women probably didn't pursue slimness with the dedication that many do today, nevertheless, women always seem to have been prepared to go to great lengths to meet the impossible standars laid down by fashions in beauty, like squeezing themselves into corsets to produce the tiny waist that was fashionable for many years (somebody once told me that some women even used to have ribs removed so they could squeeze their waists smaller). And a lot of women have no qualms about crippling their feet by teetering around in high-heeled shoes. There's no end to the lengths women will go to in the pursuit of fashion.

Louise

I have always regarded a size 10 as being skinny, rather than 'a healthy weight'. I was only ever size 10 for a very brief period when I was a teenager and went on a diet. I was a size 12 most of the rest of my youth until I was in my early thirties when I began to put on weight and eventually stuck at a size 16, which I still am. Size 10 may be most attractive to men, but I know very few women who are that size, but nevertheless many of them seem to do all right at attracting men. I find men who are obsessed with what women wear or how much they weigh a bore, whether they are dominant or not. Any man who actually requires a woman to cripple herself by teetering around in high-heeled shoes is a man to be avoided, as far as I am concerned. I don't see that as evidence of dominance, just as a man having a shoe fetish. Just as I don't regard my husband's obsession with sexy underwear as being necessarily anything to do with him being dominant, I think it's just one of those things a lot of men are kinky about, whether they are dominant or not.

Louise

To say that a size 10 is a healthy weight for women does not take in account height and bone structure.
If I was a size 10 I would be medically under weight. The only time I have ever been a size 10 was when I was about 13.
One should go on BMI not dress size to be a healthy weight. By saying a size 10 is what most men want is just falling into the hands of the fashion weight trap.
The size one should be is the size one is most comfortable with. A larger woman can be attractive if she radiates confidence and joy. A skinny woman (size 10 in my eyes) can be unattractive if she is dull and listless.

It is the sparkle that makes someone attractive.

Sully

I have read The Fascinating Girl, by Helen Andelin as well as Fascinating Womanhood and the Andelins' books are very accurate and thorough on the topic of cultivating femininity.

Although I very much appreciate her advice, I do not follow it to the letter. She basically offers the reader a set of techniques, along with some of her personal convictions. I can recommend learning to see the principles behind the book and also giving everything a try before you criticize it.

As long as you cultivate and express all the human and all the angelic qualities in some way. For example expressing femininity in your look can be done in a multitude of ways.
This dress is made from a delicate fabric; this one is adorably dainty;
Though the material is rather masculine, this coat has a darling childlike cut.

There is no need, even if following the book to the letter, to wear summer dresses in the snow, or chiffon to scrub floors. All the book says is to be the most feminine looking girl in every group. So instead of a grey pantsuit at wotk, you could wear a periwinkle skirtsuit, and be the girliest girl around. While skiing, a pink scarf and lipstick will do. For housework, a sturdy cotton dress can be made in a comfortable, yet feminine cut. Hyperfeminine, delicate and frilly dresses are advised only when every woman is dressing feminine, on parties, dates. Personally, I would say it is not even necessary to outgirl every girl all the time, as men each have their own types and preferences. Liking a rather feminine look may be near universal, but if a man likes cute chubby blondes, he will likely pass over a slinky brunette in a ruffled dress for the round blonde sweetheart in jeans and a floaty top. For the most part, as long as your clothes could not be worn by a man it is fine. The feminine look is only a small part of Helen Andelin's idea of the ideal woman, and a woman can have most of the other ideal qualities without looking feminine. Unfortunately, that makes it harder for a masculine man to find her, as most men are very visual.

There are one thousand ways to be a feminine, fascinating woman who accepts and admires her husband. The book is nowhere near the cookie cutter many see in it if you keep an open mind. Fascinating women range from Ma Ingalls to Morticia Adams, so that is a rather wide range.