If there's one thing I can't abide, it's when someone says "I need you to do x". It grates on my nerves. It makes me want to say no, I won't do it. You don't *need* him to do it, you *want* him to. If you want my advice, stop thinking of how to get him to do as he's told, and start thinking how you can do those things without his help. Don't do more than you can do, just do what you can and forget the rest. I don't mean to be unkind. I hope this doesn't come across that way, I just thought you'd like to know my honest reaction.

Fergie

> One is, it seems men would rather take a direct order
> than a nice suggestion, or a hint, which they hear as
> manipulation.

To the extent that in effect you actually mean a direct order,
then yes, I think you're basically right.

If you were honestly just dreaming about things you might
like -- like maybe vacation possibilities when in fact you're
not even sure whether you'd like a vacation at all, or
six different restaurants for dinner tonight when obviously
there can be no more than one -- then of course it's fine to
say "it would be nice." But if you do mean more like a direct
order -- "get the car fixed by Tuesday or it will definitely
turn up in the next fight we have" -- most men would probably
prefer you came right out with it. (And then they might or
might not do what you want, but if they disagree with you,
they can talk about easily. If instead they'd need to preface
any disagreement by trying to drag you out of what they see as
weasel words into what they see as an honest discussion, then
they may be less likely to try.)

I can think of at least two reasons why I am uncomfortable with
"it would be nice" meaning in fact "you must do this." I would
guess the same reasons hold for many men.

First, in ordinary (non-romantic) relationships, many men
would consider someone who made demands indirectly this way
to be an aggravating passive-aggressive weasel. Try being
someone's supervisor (in an American company, anyway, dunno
about others) and telling people to do things this way. You
can make it fly, given sufficient authority, but it will rub
many of your subordinates rather strongly the wrong way. It
reminds me, anyway, of the way arrogant royalty might act,
not ordinary people making an effort to get along with each
other. I suspect that in the work context, on the receiving
end, even many women might be reminded of the same thing.
I
Second, it's a common dysfunctional relationship game
for people to phrase their demands in such a way that
they sound weaker than they actually are, and to complement
that with a refusal to acknowledge how much effort the
partner made (or would have to make) to meet the demand.
That is, when the time comes that one would ordinarily have
to acknowledge the effort made, one pretends that the
demand was the weaker, more reasonable literal demand, not
the actual underlying unspoken demand. E.g., from a
weaselly woman, "you should spend more time with me"
can mean "you should stop doing activities that you
like, and do activities that I like, so that I can
spend time with you without having to do activities
you like [and I decline to acknowledge that you
will have to do this]." Or from a weaselly man,
discussions of financial responsibility can have the
explicit ever-so-reasonable expectation that the woman
should bring in the same income or be indebted if she
doesn't, with the unstated subtext "and you have to
be much more attractive than me, and you have to do
everything I expect from a full-time housewife in
a 1950s sitcom [and I decline to acknowledge that you
will have to do this]." It's a great game, and while
generally only one player gets to enjoy it, it can make a
strong impression on the other player regardless, leaving
him/her very sensitive to danger signs that it might be
being played again.

Note that there may be disagreements on the ground rules. To use the work analogy again, I'm a programmer, and I've worked for companies which didn't care when I came to work (as long as I got the job done on time),

and I've also worked for companies which made it a requirement to be there 9-5 (maybe more important than getting the work done, actually). As long as my boss and I both know I'm at the second type of company, then a remark from my boss that I was late would have clear significance, and he shouldn't need to keep nagging me. But if I could reasonably think I'm at the first kind of company, then he should be more explicit: "it is unacceptable to be late" or some such thing. Just repeating "oh, you were late again" would not be smart. If he's lucky, I will wonder why he's making such a point about it and (hopefully) guess that he's trying to run things the second way is not an ideal approach. Otherwise, he'll get more frustrated.

In the discussion which started this, the man is apparently providing more than enough money to get most practical things done. It isn't all that explicit what needs to be done, so possibly what needs to be done is something that he might think is already taken care of by making enough money. If he's working hard to make more than enough money for both of you, he might even have the old-fashioned idea that that's most of what he needs to do. So he might think he's at one kind of company, when in fact it's another kind of company...

It doesn't need to be orders, but it might be helpful to be more explicit than "I would love for the lawn to look more tidy." Perhaps, for example, what is meant is "dear, I know you make enough money to hire a gardener, but I'm finding that I have an emotional need for you, personally, to help out around the house, and it's making me deeply uncomfortable that you don't do that very much." Or, perhaps, "you may think you're doing your share by having a successful career, but even counting your commute it's no more than N hours a week. I have to work at least M hours every single day, even weekends, to keep things running around here, and I don't think it's fair. I should be entitled to put at least P hours of tasks on your to-do list every week and have you do them in a timely way." Then, whatever it is, even if one can't bring yourself to phrase it quite that baldly, it might be worth trying to find a way which is clear enough that one's husband can't possibly be misled by nonsolutions like "hmm, better streamline my life so I can work enough overtime that we can budget for a gardener."

As far as I know, the non-mind-reading thing swings both ways. The husband who is unhappy that his wife doesn't satisfy his emotional needs by cooking more old-fashioned full-dress sit-down dinners should probably talk about it clearly instead of dropping hints which could be interpreted as "yes, going out to nice restaurants more often would be a good idea." Right?

Another thing which swings both ways is that one may be too uncomfortable with what one wants to come out and say it. In that case it helps to have a loving partner with whom one can gently breach the subject. Ideally, one's partner is a person to whom it's (relatively) painless to explain one's desires -- for symbolic actions in day to day life, like cooking dinner or mowing the lawn, just as for wildly kinky sex acts -- even when one knows that many would criticize one for them.

(Or, if it's not just a symbolic need, but a big practical demand -- like 8 more hours of housework than you're getting already from someone who's already working full time -- then, well, a remarkably lucky choice of partner might possibly suffice.)

(Or, if one's emotional need is for a partner who reads one's mind, I'm out of ideas.:-)

Dear Melanie --

What is the worst that could happen if you just let this go and leave the responsibility of it to him? I mean really leave it to him. Don't even think about it, don't remind him, don't fret about it, just let it go, surrender control to him, let him sink or swim on his own in this? It sounds harsh but you sound really stressed and this rminding him isn't working for you or him, by the sound of it. So why not let him take responsibility for it and stop thinking about it altogether.

Sometimes, for a person to step up to the plate and take responsibility, someone else has to step down from that responsibility and until that person steps down, she's the one that get's lumbered with the responsibility. Let it go, that's what I'd do. Just my thoughts on the matter.

Helen

Those last two posts were great, ladies! Your point is very well taken. Unfortunately, I'm still on the fence here. Firstly, I'm afraid I'd be more stressed out if I let go and was then helplessly aware of everything falling down around my ears (though Amber's suggestions on dealing with this were good). Secondly, it feels mean and cruel to give him a job he doesn't want, force him to think about stuff he doesn't want to think about (I do everything but that one task now - surrendering would mean giving him ALL the financial tasks). Thirdly, it seems unethical to let go when it will affect lots of other people, not just our family.

I just need to make this decision for myself, but I am so grateful for everyone's input.

Melanie

One of the things I've been pondering lately:

Self-determination seems to be so important to my man (though perhaps not all men) that it trumps even his desire to make me happy. There's no question that he wants very much for me to be happy, and he'll do almost anything to this end, but only, ONLY if it's his idea. If he gets the slightest inkling that he's "supposed" to do something, then forget it. Resisting that "supposed to" is most important of all. Resisting all the SHOULDS and OUGHTS of life.

Weeks ago I wrote about my frustration with his not doing things that are his responsibility. Some people responded with "just do it yourself." While this is sometimes workable, me doing everything isn't really a solution. I've noticed, though, that if I make a list of things I need to do, he may come along and help me with something on that list. Or if I start a job, he may come along and take over. I can even ask him to do something, as long as I present it as asking him to rescue me from my overwhelming responsibilities. He loves to rescue me. He loves to help me. He just hates to be reminded of anything that even remotely resembles a responsibility.

So perhaps I should just take on everything as MY responsibility, and let him rescue me whenever the spirit moves him. Hmm. Feels stressful. The "surrendered wife" route seems to be to define your own responsibilities narrowly, and just blissfully ignore the rest. Very tempting, but fraught with "what if's?" What if he just doesn't pay the car insurance? What if he maxes out all the credit cards? What if I have to work full time when I'm 85 because he never saved any money?

But then, what if he knew I was counting on him? What if he knew I trusted him to do his best for me? Would all the stuff I was blissfully ignoring feel like responsibilities to him? Or could he feel like he was rescuing me from all that stressful stuff?

Melanie

Melanie,

I feel your frustration. I want my mind filled with big important things too, because it can and should be. I contribute to the family and community in positive and productive ways just as my partner does, and its value is just as worthwhile. I do not want to fill it with reminders for him and to keep coming back to them if he fails to do what needs to be done. It comes down to respect, at least for me it does. He either values what you do outside of household duties or he does not. Some have suggested forgetting what you cannot get done, that does not seem to me a viable option. Things still need to get done, at least within certain limits. I have read about women who have gone on STRIKE to bring notice to the volume of work that needs to be shared in a household, sometimes this has worked. But for me it still comes back to basic respect for me as someone who needs to contribute to meet personal goals. We all have talents that when used fulfill great satisfaction within ourselves that spill over into our intimate lives in pleasureable ways. We need the time to do these things and a loving and caring partner should want no less for us.

That simply means he needs to do his part without you having to feel what you describe. The question is why does he not support these goals and he obviously does not? Has he been part of deciding what in fact needs to be done to keep the home presentable? Does he care if the grass is long? Does he want clean socks and shirts? Are the things that need to be done your list only? What does he view as necessary? What do you think is? Can you BOTH come up with a shared view of what needs to be accomplished weekly, monthly, yearly? Maybe he does not think the grass needs to be cut at all. How long does it need be before he notices? Perhaps he grew up on the prairie. Just kidding. The point I am trying to make is we tend to project our view of how things should be done on others and they often do not see the importance we do. If they get to participate in the decision as to how often it should be attended to, they see it from the same viewpoint you are coming from, their viewpoint, and they understand. Thus you do not need to nag, they will do it as it is now something they can see needs to be done, hopefully, LOL.

In the end, it is not about submission, it is about respecting both of your real and valid feelings. You both need to listen to each other and making adjustments for each others happiness.

I partially agree with you Fergie, on the you do this first and yadda, yadda, but sometimes women have legitimate gripes, and sometimes we're as this young lady was. We just have pentup frustrations, and we're moody, and even though we are "into" spanking, I've been guilty of saying "YOU BETTER NOT" cuz I'm not in the mood. So I could identify with the young lady. In another way is that she didn't need a whole lot of spanking, and didn't realize she did need it at all, but when she got it, and broke down crying, it was the best thing that could have happened to her.

i really liked that last paragraph. Maybe my over responsible traits have not left enough room for Him to step up!

I don't know what country you're in, but if you are in the US, then you must keep in mind that if your husband doesn't pay the bills, then dies before you do, the responsibilities of paying all debts falls upon you. That's the law in the US. So, I would not recommend taking a laid back attitude and telling yourself "If he doesn't pay the bills, then I'm not going to worry about it."

Hi ladies,

I run a list called Smart Dating based on "The Surrendered Single." What I am witnessing here is that you ladies are always focusing on THEM and I see nothing about how you are practicing self-care.

I live with my DBF of 4.5 years (for personal financial reasons). I continually seek out ways to please ME. Sometimes behaving badly is a way I please myself so I will receive discipline. But, it is always about my own self-care. Like, I no longer work so I can study Music Technology full-time. I am a recording artist. I don't even look at what he is doing to make it happen that I don't have to work and trust him fully when he had never previously given me a reason to trust at that level.

One day he said to me, "If you're not happy, I'm not happy." Well, I already knew that but he meant business when he said it.

When I say discipline I mean, for us, he puts me in my place. We are not into spanking or any of that, which I feel is just the physical manifestation overstated of what we already have.

So, i would like to hear from some of you how you are practicing self-care and pursuing your own dreams.

brenda

Melanie? Are you married to MY Paul? because he's the same way. I love him dearly but he doesn't do so many things that need to be done. I have had to take over the finances because he forgets a lot of times. He even frustrates me sexually as he is not forceful or assertive. He is afraid he will hurt me and he loves me too much to be anything but gentle although he claims to be dominant and I do see some dominance in him from time to time. You are not alone, Melanie.

I am now, and forever will be, the angel at his mercy.

As a forgetful, annoyed-when-reminded partner myself, I was amused to see recently that my Myers Briggs personality type (INTP) actually is infamous for getting lost in one's head, whereas my ex was a "get the chores done" type" (ISTJ). I truly don't see the grass until it's knee high and the bills - heck, the whole damn calendar - feels like some evil structure trying to straightjacket me. If you consider that this is probably not an interpersonal struggle or because he doesn't care but more likely a function of two minds that work very differently, it might be less aggravating for you.

As for tips on getting the attention of someone like me, here's what has worked for me:
- Insert things into the schedules/systems I already have set up. I receive a lot of information via email at work and am conditioned to respond to it, so when my ex emailed reminders to my work, I was much better equipped to do the things he asked.
- Ask at the most clear-headed times. My ex had much more success asking me to do things on a Sunday morning than at 11:00 on a Tuesday night when my head was full of work or sleep. Ask your partner to define one or two "safe" periods per week, and stick to it.
- As someone suggested above, it works for me to phrase things in terms of goals instead of tasks and in terms of people's needs instead of as chores. Saying "we've got to get our employee Kim her money" motivates me much better than "go run the computer report".
- Prioritize. Understand that your partner's tolerance is limited (which obviously, Melanie, you do!) Differentiate between the things you'd like done and the things that must be done. Keep two different lists and let me see all the nasty chores you're shielding me from, and hopefully I'll thank you rather than argue with you.
- Sticky note reminders on the bathroom mirror are key!

Good luck, and I apologize for the frustration caused by all my fellow absent-minded professor personality types and myself!

I agree I am still in the process of turning responsibilities over to my husband. Sometimes I do well with submitting and other times I fail.

As much as I panic and feel like he has made serious mistakes I just look at the bigger picture and not one incident. I say to myself..."I have had a baby this year I have been at home with my 6 yr old and baby for over 8 months. I haven't been working for almost a year. My husband has been in and out of jobs monthly for a while. Now, for the last 4-5 months he has been starting his own business. We do not have a business loan. I have no way to explain things, and yet we still have a roof over our head and utilities. We have an active life. We do family things and have a great time. We camp, go swimming, picnic, and go out for icecream...etc."

It is a constant process to submit because it isn't easy to ignore being behind on bills and rent, letting the house get cluttered up with "treasures" from garbage picking, and other things related to his business annoys me. I am feeling overloaded with work around the house, raising children and learning to be a better wife and mother.

I just do what I can, because that is enough, and work on turning over the rest of the responsiblities, being respectful and not nagging. I have to do relaxation techniques I learned in Childbirth Classes :)

Taking the responsiblities away from him (or attempting to) really made it worse. I was more stressed, things got done less or not at all, and we fought more.

When looking at things that are serious it helps me to realize that house work and other things that are annoying are not as important. Having a good relationship is...
I have just recently learned of this web site and I want to learn more. I don't want a marriage like my parents or my husband's parents have or had. I want my children to grow up with more than that.

You might want to re-think the 'giving orders' role. Some men, (mine included!) would not take kindly to being given an order by his wife. We have responsibilities at home that we agree upon, and when we get them done is up to us alone. We agreed not to nag one another.

The last time I 'ordered' him to do someting e.g. "Why the hell don't you clean the dog crap and mow the grass?!!!!" was in the middle of the day and although he had never spanked me in the middle of the day because the kids would hear, he decided to not worry about the kids. He took, no pulled me upstairs, into our bedroom and spanked me so hard I wailed. His complaint was that I was giving him orders and being disrespectful in front of our children. He then cut the grass. I have NEVER given another order to him.

Melanie - not sure if you are still reading, but if you are, take heed... Years ago I was very ill and couldn't get out to pay regular bills (no on-line bill pay at the time). I asked my then-husband to pay them. He said he would. Well he didn't. One of the bills was our car insurance. So of course it was cancelled and of course he had an accident that totalled a brand new (2 months old!!!) car!!!!!!! We wound up paying for the car while having to buy a new one to boot. My then-husband is now my ex-husband!

Today, my husband, S, pays the bills and we split 'chores' in the house because we both work. But when I'm tired, all I have to do is mention that I'm tired, my back hurts, my head hurts, I'd really like some 'me time', etc., and S comes to the rescue. He does like to rescue me. He seems to get great joy in the phrase "Here, let me do that..." LOL. So I let him "rescue" me. No biggie.

I read somewhere that men respond better
if you ask in a way that is very light-hearted; perhaps
it has to do with the "tone of your voice" as WELL as
how you word it. I read that as far as wordings go,
using "Will you do X for me? Thanks." works best.

I tried this on my non-committed partner recently and
it totally worked. I think the point was to use the
words "Will you..." rather than any of the other wordings
out there... "Can you..." or "Would you please..."

In the article it said that men need to be asked in a
way that is NOT apologetic, not "nice" and not "worrying"
- just toss it out there, as if it's just a small matter,
like a no biggie.

I find this kind of thing SOOOOO important - because
my Mom did the whole martyr thing and both my parents
ended up hating it; whereas my lady-like aunt asks her
husband to do myriad chores around the house like a pro!
and he LIKES helping her!!!

So... I think just be "foxy," use the "Hey, will you do
X for me, thank you." wording & tone, and keep us posted!

Thanks for sharing! I enjoyed your share!

M Ssaid "We agreed not to nag one another.
The last time I 'ordered' him to do someting e.g. "Why the hell don't you clean the dog crap and mow the grass?!!!!" was in the middle of the day and although he had never spanked me in the middle of the day because the kids would hear, he decided to not worry about the kids. He took, no pulled me upstairs, into our bedroom and spanked me so hard I wailed. His complaint was that I was giving him orders and being disrespectful in front of our children. He then cut the grass. I have NEVER given another order to him."

Because of the kids hearing this I am uncomfortable with what happened but on the other hand it can't be worse than what I grew up with. This would have started a huge fight between my Parents with things flying across the room etc.. I grew up so much with yelling and screaming that I still get very nervous and scared around loud voices.

Any issue between my parents would have started a major power struggle argument no matter how small the issue was. I have a lot of trouble bringing up issues in a relationship because I am so afraid of a blowup.