I want to wish you ladies luck finding your man. Don't give up, and be sure to be real clear about what you want. Don't think that because your man's not masterful from the beginning he can't ever be. Remember many men have had bad experiences with women accusing them of being controlling and they don't want to screw up a new relationship. So ya gotta give 'em a chance!

Gee, there are so many women looking for a dominant spanko man.... Think I'll go be a nun.

Some years ago I joined a contact agency. My ad included the statement that I wanted to meet a submissive woman. I had several replies, one of which was an anonymous letter telling me that I'd better change my ideas fast, there were NO submissive women any more and I was being pretty insulting to women in general by asking for one. What a shame she didn't give her address.

you sound real -

I wonder what it is that keeps men and women from being able to find each other --
I would want a man of intimacy, and strength, and humor. One who wanted a strong woman who was also submissive.

I have never had the experience, and have never had the courage to use a contact agency.

you are brave.

Just an FYI ... don't rule out meeting your ideal man in CHURCH. Yes, it's TRUE! That's what happened with me. I was with a soppy momma's boy for almost 5 yrs (at 30, he was still telling his mother we were "chapperoned" when alone together!!!), left his wimpy butt and started going back to church. Met a calm, quiet type (on the OUTSIDE) and wound up marrying him. Biblically, men are in control, and women were always subserviant (ever notice the male descendents are listed in the Bible, not the females?). A true Bible scholar (or aspiring one) will understand these things, as well as understand the role the Bible played in intimate relationships. I told him that I had a bit of a secret, and explained to him that I am fascinated with Biblical relationships . . . after a few proddings, a couple of emails sent on the "Gentlemanly Art", etc, he picked it up very quickly. One of the biggest "selling points" was that I told him I had a hard time relating to "modern" women in their power struggles and quest for plastic vanity, and that I'm just an old fashioned girl with old fashioned values. It worked . . . I'm happy and very grateful :0)

Good luck to all - but I'm suggesting to you, don't rule things (like church or "get togethers") out. You never know what wonderful person might be waiting for you.

Try dating a Marine. He's used to a leadership role and he'll get the idea pretty fast.

I saw a TV programme a few years ago about white English women who had married Muslim men and converted. It focused on one woman in particular who seemed to have a very happy relationship with her husband. Although she wore the traditional Muslim garb, long coat and headscarf and stuff, and although she had apparently accepted the Muslim rule that she should be submissive to her husband, she wasn't at all servile towards him, and they seemed to have a very relaxed, cheerful marriage. At one point he was sweeping the kitchen floor and she made a joke about how rare it was to see a Muslim man with a broom, and he laughed; it seemed a very harmonious relationship.

But they were planning to move back to his family's country of origin, I don't remember whether it was Pakistan or Iran or Syria or whatever, but anyway they wanted to go there so they could live a good Muslim life more easily in a country where Muslim law held sway. The interviwer asked this nice, cheerful lady how she would feel about, say, seeing a woman stoned to death for adultery, and she shrugged and said something like if the woman had broken the law then she deserved to die. I found that a very chilling moment; I was appalled at the idea that an English woman could accept such a barbaric legal system, and I wondered if her nice, smiling, cheerful husband would be one of the ones to cast stones at the adulterous woman.

I'm glad you enjoyed my comment about the C of E. I have been to Catholic churches quite often as my best friend is Catholic, and I have noticed that they generally seem to get much better houses than the Anglicans, but even so the congregations seem to be largely female or families, with very few unattached men visible. America seems to be very different, with churches full of gorgeous men. I have frequently in the past been visited by Mormon missionaries, who are invariably tall, handsome healthy-looking young men. They are always in pairs, presumably for their own safety, as one on his own wouldn't be safe The last pair who came round one of them was so gorgeous that I went weak at the knees when I answered the door and could only with difficulty restrain myself from dragging him into the house saying "Yes, yes, I'm a very wicked woman, come in and save me!"

It all depends what you mean by 'equal'. Clearly men and women are not equal physcially, men are bigger, stronger, and faster, and that gives them a decided advantage. When you say they are not equal though you presumably don't mean that you think women and men should not have equal legal rights for instance. I assume you wouldn't, like Florence King, advocate the repeal of the Nineteenth Amendment?

Women and men have different needs from each other, but women also have widely differeing needs from other women, and so presumably do men. All humans have the same basic needs, for food, shelter, and clothing, I think somebody on here pointed out that everything else is desire rather than need. And differing desires we see a lot of even on this site, not all women want the same thing even from a Taken In Hand relationship, let alone the multitude of women who don't want to be in any kind of a relationship where the man is dominant.

I don't know how common the desire to be submissive is among women, but I imagine that there are a lot of women out there who can quite happily do without it. I don't think a man who doesn't want to be dominant is necessarily a 'castrated' man, he just doesn't have that desire. Humans are too complicated to be lumped together in one category, women have a widely differing variety of desires, and so do men.

This is a conundrum faced by so many women of our generation. This is my question, in service to realistic expectations: Is it possible to "make" a strong man out of a p.c. indoctrinated man who has become comfortable with the idea of abdicating responsibility for taking control in a relationship with a woman? Can one effectively train and empower such a man to embrace this desire once he's given away his power? Furthermore why would one want to?

I suspect that true alpha males, for lack of a better term, are naturally inclined to desire the model of relating that I, and many other women in know want. I'm not sure I'd ever be able to fully trust and submit to, and embrace my personal, subjective ideals of femininity, with a man who I had to coax into taking control of a relationship. I would always wonder if it was a sham.

I believe that people are, in many ways, innately predisposed to certain ways of approaching psycho-sexual relationships, for whatever reasons. When a truly dominant man meets a truly submissive woman, the recognition and resonance (provided there is authentic chemistry) is immediately felt by both. The attraction seems to flow, unforced, and without awkward posturing and confusion. There is a sense of joy, I've found, and natural and undeniable attraction.

Unfortunately, I have no solution to propose. These are just some of my immediate thoughts and questions in response to this post. My hope is that, through the laws of attraction, I will meet such a man again. The idea of having to pander to, essentially, strong arming an emasculated or, to put it more generously, non dominant man into becoming my master/slave seems to me to miss the point.

"...because he is treated like a king."

More truthful words were never spoken. In ALL of my life, I have seen only ONE man in a happy marriage. The way she behaved toward him was the SEXIEST thing I have ever seen.

She was fully clothed and never exposed herself.

She made life worth living for him.

Mick McCleod