PLEASE please can someone help us get this started in the right way
I came across this site about a year ago (I was single at the time) and for once everything just clicked. I have always been a very strong independent woman. In all my relationships I have called all the shots, decided where we go, where we live, what we spend money on, even what music we listen to. I was never happy and always wanted a man to PUT HIS FOOT DOWN.
Well now at the age of 32 I'm pleased to say I have met the most wonderful man. He's strong, sexy, funny and makes me feel alive and loved.
I have shown him this site and he's very keen to give it a go. Sadly we have a few teething issues. I feel the need for him to be very firm with me and to actively stop me taking control, but although he knows I want this, at the time action is called for he hesitates, fearing a lack of consent. I understand that as a decent man he would not want to put his foot down if I were the kind of woman who wanted a different kind of relationship, but the fact is I desperately want a full taken in hand relationship in which my man WILL NOT ALLOW me to take control, and in which he does whatever is necessary to keep the upper hand. So it is very frustrating for me that my man hesitates in this way.
He also worries if I say I don't want sex (I have done this often lately, wanting him to take me). He will start to take me but then begins to feel bad that it's abuse.
In other words, he is not comfortable with the appearance of non-consent.
I worry that if I try to explain to him I will feel in control and then I'll be in control and feel frustrated and miserable because despite my tendency to take control I hate being in control and need my man to take control and retain control no matter how much I seem to be trying to take control.
Please please can someone give us advice? We both really want this as we feel it will enhance our life together, we just need a little help.
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#1 Hesitant men!
Sorry if my English is not perfect, but I’m from a Scandinavian country.
I understand if a confident man will hesitate to take control because of his lack of certainty of your consent to being told what to do. This can be even more the fact when we are talking about physical force of just him taking you sexually ‘against your will’.
Even though you do not want to tell him how to act you need to inform him in a very clear and precise manner that you would like him to take charge when "time of action is called for." I would suggest that you find at least 2 examples where you took the lead and actually wanted him to take you in hand, but where he hesitated. You need to give him examples of where you would have liked him to step up. If he is inclined to take charge then you do not need to explain HOW he should have acted – just that he should have acted but he didn’t. You need to tell him that you are in consent with him being in charge and if he do step up to the challenge then you will also accept this and obey him. You have to make this statement up front, so he really knows that you not only accept it but really expect and wants his masculine control.
You do not write specifics about how he should stop you from taking control but he does need to know your expectations in clear, specific, concrete terms.
For many men it is even more evident with consent when we talk about physical force like a spanking and "forced sex". In most free countries taking a woman who is acting as though she is unwilling or even saying no and that this is ‘against her will’, that is deemed rape. If your man feels very uncertain about just taking you I would suggest that you write a document clearly expressing your consent (or giving 'blanket consent' as some write about on this site). You should say in the document that he is not only allowed but even expected to do this whenever he feels like it with your up-front permission. That is maybe not a legal accepted document but it is a very clear message to the man that you love of your consent and your expectations.
Now an advice to your wonderful man:
If you really are inclined to be head of the household and take charge then you should make sure that you understand her expectations of your behavior. Her expectations as to when (probably always?) you need to make sure that she is not in charge and especially HOW she expects you to express your control. For some it can be just a quiet word; a command; a special glance; a special tone in the voice and for others it can involve physical force. You need to know her expectations but you also need to give her feedback if some of her expectations are unacceptable to you. You can have limits or wishes of how to control her that are different from hers. It all has to be put on the table. BUT if you in reality are not as controlling and forceful as she wants you to be, and you don't really want to be more controlling, then you also have to be honest with her. Then you both have to face the situation and discuss what this means for your relationship now and even more importantly on a long-term basis.
In conclusion I would say that even if some people don’t like to talk about how they like a relationship to work, and just hope for the right reaction from the other person, this approach is seldom an efficient way to reach the goal wanted. You need to communicate and inform the other part in a relation of your wishes and expectations and in some cases you need to compromise – but without compromising so much that you in the end get dissatisfied in the relationship. Often you need compromises but it has to end up with both the woman and the man living in a happy, loving and deeply committed relationship where both feel comfort in how they relate in the relationship.
I hope you can use this advice and good luck to you both.
A Scandinavian man (in a Taken In Hand kind of relationship)
#2 Man, I so get this...
Hey Lalique and mate,
I so get this. I came from a long line of abusers, so this did not come easy to me at all. Especially at first when I thought what my wife was wanting was sort of a D/s game. I would 'pretend' to be dominant and angry, she would resist, and I would fold...I hated it! She just wouldn't play! And she seemed to be getting more angry, and more frustrated, despite the fact that I was trying to be nice!
But it wasn't a game to her. She, in her way, came to me saying, "I'm tired of the way I'm living. I don't want to be in charge, but I have to be unless you can prove to me that you are strong enough to take care of me. If you can't control me, how can I will trust you to control my whole world? I want to be safe, and happy, and at peace, and I need you to help me find that."
I came to understand that I was trying to be the man that the world had taught me that she should want, despite the fact that she was telling me that that was not the man that she wanted. I was comfortable being politically correct, when what my lady needed was for me to care more about what she wanted than what the Oprah show thought of my behavior.
I would ask her, "What do I do when I tell you I've had enough and you continue on, continue to argue..what do I do then?" She said, "what do you want to do?" I said, "At that moment? I want to whip your ass!" She said, "Then do it if you can. And we'll talk about it after." So I did.
The next time we got into one of those angry/hateful kind of arguements and I couldn't figure out a way to get us back to a respectful place I grabbed her and threw her down on the bed, pulled down her pants and spanked the hell out of her! She shrieked and fought, and got really, really pissed, grin, and I kept on until I could see that the mad was replaced by submissiveness, and then stopped. I lay on top of her, holding her while she cried, feeling like the worlds bigges asshole...Yet she rolled over and hugged me, and kissed me, and just CLUNG to me...and then I got it.
Most of that anger and spitefulness was her trying to push me, to push me to a point of standing up for myself, myself and my mate, but I hadn't been getting it.
What would have been, just last week, a several day long argument was gone. I was spent, not angry, not sorry, just happy to be holding my girl. She was spent, not angry, not afraid, just so happy to see that she didn't have to play the mind games any more, didn't have to feel guilty because she'd stepped out of line, it was gone. It was over, and all that was left was this amazing closeness, a loving...glow.
What there wasn't, I was shocked to discover, was guilt. It didn't feel wrong.
I know I'm not explaining it nearly as well as many here might be able to, but it was a beautiful moment, as they continue to be now.
My wife is now so much sexier, and more playful, so much more relaxed! No longer does she struggle with trying to control everything, I won't allow it. Because I'm the man!?! No, because it's an unhappy, unhealthy place for her to live. And caring for her is the most vital, important, rewarding thing that I've ever done in my life. Loving her also gets me everything that I've ever wanted from a mate..and more.
Please feel free to ask questions as you'd like. I'm not terribly smart, nor any kind of Taken in Hand Guru, but this site has certainly give me, and my girlfriend of 25 years the tools we need to live a ridiculously happy, sexy, healthy life. I'd be more than happy to help you in any way that I can.
Good luck!
Dwayne
#3 Quite the dilemma. As a male
Quite the dilemma. As a male in a similar situation, I can easily see his viewpoint. Ultimately it comes down to rearing. Many men have been raised in an environment where it is not okay to engage a woman physically against her will, whether or not she seems to want it. It is essential that both parties communicate, it is critical that you let him understand that this is what you truly want.
Small, slow steps. There are a few threads here. Let him know you like it when he does this, or enjoy him doing that. He will gradually, if he is smart enough, get the hint, and embrace the role more freely with less reservation. Strength begets strength.
One does not undo the teachings of a lifetime overnight. It is critical that you be consistent and assure him that your desire to be taken in hand is not a passing lark. Also realize that he will be clumsy at first, getting his bearings and feeling his boundaries. Still, as he gains confidence and expetrience, the skills will reinforce themselves and his proficiency, whether it be controlling the situation, reading your signals or spanking you until you are sated and submissive will increase.
Good luck, it is quite a worthy, if challenging, endeavor.
#4 Not wanting sex
I'm not surprised your husband doesn't feel comfortable about having sex with you when you have said you don't want it. No decent man would. What on earth is the point of saying you don't want sex if you do? I think that is completely crazy. I know my husband would hate it if I messed him about like that. I think you should stop doing that. It's not very nice.
Louise
#5 Trying to force non consensual consensual sex.
I agree and disagree with your opinion. In a normal lifestyle of grief and debate I believe that you are right. That claiming not to want sex as some part of a passive aggressive game is a mistake and very destructive.
In the Taken In Hand way of life I think that it is much different though. Many of the Taken In Hand women revel in seeing their mate exercise his power. They feel strong and confident when they see him flex his muscles, knowing that he will always do so in her defense when necessary.
But how to get him to show his machismo in a world that abhors such things? Withholding sex is one way.
Even before our Taken in Hand relationship my wife did not use sex as a bartering tool. I have always had access to sex when and where I want it with the obvious exceptions like illness, genuine exhaustion, etc.
There are times now when I hint to my beautiful wife that I would like to 'get together' after the household settles down a little bit, yet she makes it clear that she has no interest. She doesn't outright refuse, but she makes it clear that my sexual needs are not high on her priority list. And I know exactly what she is saying. She is telling me that if I want her, I am going to have to take her by force.
Now, in the PC world of today the feminist may cry foul, but I've know very few, perhaps no strong, intelligent, confident women that don't have a fantasy of being taken against their will, but only in a fantasy of course.
So later in the evening I give her a chance to change her mind/attitude, she of course refuses and I take her sexually 'against her will.' It's absolutely one of her favorite things in the world.
So I guess the point I'm trying to make here is that we need to be careful how we judge others particularly when we're using absolutes to do so. You're opinion of "You should never play sex games" is true for many, but very untrue for many as well. In many situations the context is all.
Dwayne
#6 "I worry that if I try to
Explaining the kind of relationship you're after is not taking control. The fact that he's visited this site and likes what he reads is a good thing, but you two are a unique couple. He can't understand YOU by reading this site alone. You have to talk at length, probably several times, to understand each other and what you each want and desire from the relationship: your roles, expectations.....
Have you really discussed non-consent and what it means to you? Does he really get what non-consent looks like to you in real life and in what situations you are giving him the controlling power?
Taken in hand couples can be very different. If he loves you, he is a good man not to just forge ahead with a weak understanding. I'm sure he doesn't want to do anything to damage the trust in the relationship.
And even when he does fully understand what you desire, it may not come easy to him right away or all of the time.
It sounds to me like you two need a lot more direct communication. You cannot expect him to magically take charge the way you've imagined in your mind when he may be just beginning to wrap his own brain around these concepts.
When I found Taken-in-hand, bells went off in my head and it was like I found that one puzzle piece that made all the others in my mind fit. Years of trying to figure myself out (my desires, why I was attracted to strong, take-charge men, struggling with my own feminist upbringing, etc.) suddenly made sense. There were other people like me!
I read and read and over the past year and a half I have continued to come to a deeper understanding of myself, what taken-in-hand relationships look like, how different they can be, the kind I want, and the fact that I, too, will have to bring this to the attention of my man.
I know the time I've spent understanding my OWN desires and finding a way to verbalize them, so I fully expect there will be a good deal of time spent talking with my partner, trying things out, moving forward, talking again, until we find our groove.
Talk to him. It sounds like he's excited by the idea and that is great start already. He sounds like a keeper but he isn't a mind reader.
#7 Forcing sex
I think it's one of the fundamental differnces between men and women, that men don't care whether women want sex or not, whereas women want to be desired.
So while I can't imagine anything less appealing than having sex with a man who didn't really feel like it (supposing such a thing was physically possible), most men don't seem to care whether women want it or not, so long as they get their end away.
However, if you are married to one of those rare men who has moral scruples about forcing himself on a woman who is saying 'no' (as evidently the husband in the comment above is one of these rare men), it seems to me somewhat unfair to demand that he turn himself into the type of man who just takes what he wants regardless.
If a man is not comfortable doing that, I don't think he should be pressured into that role. Why not just respond pleasantly when he initiates sex? Why not think about making him happy, instead of demanding that he fulfill the role of heartless ravager, if that is not his thing?
Louise
#8 Saying you don't want sex when you do...
Maybe one of the dynamics they are embarking on is concentual non-concent with regards to sex. If they have discussed it, then he might have an idea that when she turns him down she, in fact, wants him to "take her."
However, that doesn't mean a man who hasn't acted on that before in his life will suddenly be able to just because the discussions took place. It may still feel like a strange concept or part of him may be conflicted wondering which times she *really* doesn't want it, and which times she wants him to *take her*.
It sounds like they need a lot more communication....
#9 Playing hard to get...
I had zero tolerance when dating for girls who would play hard to get, I'm not a mind reader and so I take people at their word. I would never force myself on my wife if I genuinely thought she didn't want to make love.
I like to be forceful, I like hold her down as she tried to get away before I enter her. I love to feel her resistance turn to arousal, hunger and climax, but if she wants things to go that way, I need to know that it will go that direction rather than resistance, anger, hurt, and resentment.
If she says 'Just try it buddy', or "You wouldn't dare!' , or 'You think you can just take me?' or something along those lines that dares me to take her forcefully, I know what she if after and I let her have it.
#10 Consent and Control
First, every one of us had dilemmas when we first began a Taken In Hand relationship. Perhaps not the same ones you are experiencing but dilemmas just the same. So please do not feel as though you are alone in this.
You mention that you tell him you don't want to have sex because you want him to "take you". While I will admit that being taken is a huge turn on, denying him sex so that he will do so, isn't. In my house this would be termed manipulation and I would be severely punished for it. I learned early on that if I want something, my best bet is to ask for it. My love will do anything in his considerable power to make me happy and to give me what I need and want. I'm willing to bet that yours will too. Tell him that you want him to just "take" you from time to time. That it would be a huge turn on for you and would enhance your sex life immensely. Then stop at that. Why does he need to ask you for sex if you want to be taken on occasion? If he were just to do it without asking wouldn't that fulfill your desire just as much as if you first turned him down? Letting your fantasies and desires known, both yours and his, can only make things better for both of you.
You also mention that you feel that if you tell him what you want that you will in essence be controlling the relationship. I disagree. My relationship is more than just Taken In Hand, it also contains elements of D/s, but even here I have the right to express my needs and desires, as long as in doing so I maintain the correct tone and attitude. As an integral part of the relationship you have every right, even responsibility, to tell your partner what you need out of it. It is obviously doing neither of you any good for you to remain silent. He cannot read your mind and just knowing that you want to be Taken In Hand is not enough. As Scandinavian Man pointed out, you need to put things on the table, talk with each other, and come to an agreement, together, on what is and is not going to be part of your relationship. After all, a Taken In Hand relationship is just that, a relationship, and thus it requires the input of all those involved.
#11 Are you married?
Lalique, are you married to this man? If not, it's not surprising that your man is hesitant. In my opinion he should wait until after you're married before taking you the way you want him to.
If you want a real Taken In Hand relationship I personally believe you should take more time to get to know one another before having sex, like Patricia Allen and Sandra Harmon argue in their book Getting to "I Do" – yes I know it's old-fashioned to say that but I honestly believe that having sex without the commitment of an imminent wedding is the biggest mistake you can make if you want a true Taken In Hand relationship.
Think of it from your man's point of view: you are asking him to take you ostensibly against your will, in a relationship that may or may not last. If he ends the relationship as he might, what might you do? You might accuse him of rape! A woman scorned, and all that. Whether you would or not, he might reasonably fear that you would. If you were happily married with a reasonably long history together, he might know you well enough and feel sufficiently settled in the relationship to consider taking you the way you want him to. But not if you have only recently met.
Taken In Hand wife
#12 Concrete examples
A Scandinavian man wrote:
Excellent advice! I agree, very concrete, clear examples are good – but be super-tactful and don't keep giving him more and more examples or it feel be like a running critical commentary on his shortcomings, which most would hate.
Taken In Hand wife
#13 Wanting him not to let you take control
Lalique wrote of her deep need for her man to be so thoroughly in control that he would do whatever is necessary to stop her taking control even if she tries hard to take control.
I believe this is typical of all Taken In Hand women. If you've had the experience of having found yourself in control in a relationship in the past, the fear of ending up in control is huge when beginning a new relationship.
This is why developing a Taken In Hand relationship with a new partner is quite challenging, because the woman needs to test her man's control, to be sure he is not going to end up letting her take control, but he also needs evidence that she is a good person who will be pleasant to live with. It's a delicate dance requiring consideration and sensitivity on both sides. It can't be all about you, the woman. Just as you need to know for sure that he will never let you take control, that he'll actively take you in hand and keep you there, he needs evidence that you care about his wishes and needs, and that you will actively take them into account when you are married.
When you have felt the need to be controlled by a man for a while, the need can take over if you lack self control. That can mean behaving in a way that no sane man would find acceptable. Instead of being thoughtful and kind, some such women drive their man away by behaving dreadfully badly. Don't do that! If you want to develop a Taken In Hand relationship with a man you are not yet married to, I believe you need to develop some self control, to show the man that you are not just a self-absorbed, immature, inconsiderate woman who would be a nightmare to live with in the long run.
Taken In Hand wife