I can only take charge because we are equal partners

I'm sorry, but I am struck over and over as I read this site at the negative connotation of being submissive, and frankly, I'm getting pretty tired of it. You describe women you date as nice, but clingy and submissive, not your intellectual equals, and having a slave-like mentality. I know you don't intend to offend with your posting and are simply sharing your honest feelings. I hope you won't be offended by what I am about to share.

A high percentage of people on this site seem to not understand what submission is. You, for example, equated submission with some pretty unappealing qualities--clinginess, slave-likeness, and intellectual inferiority. How wrong you are. The women you date may truly exhibit those negative qualities, but those qualities have nothing to do with submission.

I've read many posts from women, as well, who seem to feel a strong need to point out that they have never been and never will be submissive, as though to say, "Don't get the wrong idea about me--even though I love having my man actively control me, I could never be described as anything so hideous, cringing, weak, and pathetic as a submissive woman!!"

What I'd like to know is where do you people get these ideas about what submission is?? Right now, my mind is only able to come up with a few possible explanations, not to say there aren't other plausible ones. The one that seems most likely is that this negative stereotype of submission may be part of our Western culture, where we have traditionally placed such a high value on aggression, dominance, and self-reliance. In such a culture, I suppose it's natural that anything different from that "top dog" mentality would be viewed as weak, unappealing, inferior.

Another possibility is that when people react negatively to the word "submissive," they're reacting to the kinky, sexual dynamic of a submissive partner who enjoys thinking of herself as her "master's slave" and who eagerly laps up what most would consider demeaning and abusive behavior from him.

Or, perhaps this aversion to the idea of submission is due, in part, to the fact that Christian wives are exhorted in the New Testament to submit to their husbands. As Christianity itself has fallen out of favor in our society and is often viewed very negatively as representing a backwards world view clung to by intellectual weaklings, I suppose a natural response is to despise any concepts associated with Christianity, submission being one of them.

Likely, the distaste for submission I encounter on this site is a combination of the factors I've stated above and some others that haven't yet occurred to me.

Gotta be honest with you, though, it both ticks me off and boggles my mind. I, myself, submit to my husband. Since my nature is to be very self-focused, this does not come naturally to me, or at least, did not come naturally to me when I first decided to relate to my husband this way, approximately a decade ago. I chose to begin submitting to my husband--ah, note that I said I CHOSE. Hmmm. . .that seems to indicate that I used my INTELLECT to consider this option, carefully weighed it, and then used my sense of SELF DETERMINATION to arrive at MY own ultimate DECISION to submit. Anyway, I chose to begin submitting to my husband as a result of wanting to do a better job of living out the precepts I found in the Bible, submission being just one of many. Since I do believe in God (I guess that automatically makes me an unthinking moron to some out there?), I decided I wanted to try his approach to life, including the marriage part of life. I figured he designed us and understands our deepest needs better than we, ourselves, do, and that he knows what works best in man-woman relationships as in the rest of life.

What I have found is that submission, at least like that described in the Bible, rather than being a weakness, actually takes a tremendous amount of intellectual and emotional maturity, self-discipline and strength of character and will! My husband and I are absolutely intellectual equals, a fact we would both attest to. We also both understand that my value as a person is no less than his. He is NOT my superior, and I am in NO WAY his inferior!!

And I can tell you without reservation, as an Evangelical Christian woman (can't speak for other types of submissive women), I have NEVER come into contact with other Christian women who view themselves as weak and inferior to their husbands. Quite frankly, most would be aghast at the life styles described on this website and would consider them to be unhealthy and extreme. The women I know who have consciously chosen to submit to their husbands are strong, capable women who have rewarding careers, interesting hobbies, and who are full partners with their husbands. They are no more apt to be "clingy" or "intellectually weak" than the general population, and, I believe, far LESS apt to be "slave-like" in their mentality than the general population. We're talking about gals who KNOW their worth in God's eyes and who WILL NOT be trampled on. And yet, they have a soft femininity in relation to their husbands. Yes, they fully participate in life decisions, big and small, yet have determined that their husbands will make the final decision and they will choose to respect and support their husbands' leadership.

This is the kind of woman I know and the kind of woman I am. Putting yourself in my shoes for a moment, can you begin to understand how horrified I am when I read the degrading things people write about submission on this website? It's as though "submission" is a dirty word. That's bizarre to me!

I recall reading a post by another man (I don't remember who he was or the title of his post) who wrote something along the lines of, "People who believe women have a religious obligation to submit only do it because they fear the wrath of God Almighty if they don't submit." What a bunch of hogwash!! The Bible says nothing about women experiencing God's wrath if they don't submit just as it says nothing about men experiencing God's wrath if they don't love their wives as Christ loved the Church (which is to say, self-sacrificially). We don't read this in our Bibles and we are not taught this at church, in Bible study groups or in Christian living literature, of which there is an abundance. Christian women don't submit to their husbands because they fear punishment from God if they don't. They do it because they have a relationship with God in which they've experienced how good life is when they trust that God loves them, understands them, and knows best how to give them the best that life has to offer. Submission is just one more area where they say, "Yes, I can safely give this area of my life over to God, just as I have in this area and that area in the past and it's worked out for the best. I've discovered that God has so much more to give me than I could have ever even imagined for myself much less attained."

As I've been typing this, another thought has occurred to me. I mentioned earlier that submission requires a great deal of self-discipline. Maybe THAT'S the part that you who are anti-submissive don't like. Maybe it's because you want your man to MAKE or COMPEL you to submit to his control rather than having to use your own will and self-discipline to submit to him. Well, that's absolutely fine with me if that's how you're wired, but why demean mine and others' submission as a weakness just because you prefer being made to do it rather than having it arise from your own will and effort?

And, actually, even though I choose to submit, that doesn't mean my husband doesn't simultaneously compel my submission. He is very masterful in the decisions he makes and in how he lives out his every day life. I still can and do enjoy feeling his masculine energy and control, even though I'm choosing to submit to it, and yes, I do find it very erotic and satisfying.

Well, Tyler, I hope you do find what you're looking for in a woman. I want you to know the incomparable satisfaction of finding a mate who is able to wholly partner with you in all of life's joys and struggles and with whom you'll be able to experience both the fullness of your masculinity and of her femininity. I didn't mean to "go off" on you and your post--I guess yours was just the one that finally tipped the scales enough to make me want to set the record straight on what submission is as opposed to the caricaturized version of it people so often allude to in their comments on this site. I truly hope I haven't offended you or anyone else here. Thanks for permitting me to vent and to explore this issue a bit.

I believe that other women who have chosen to submit to their husbands and who also consider themselves taken in hand have also been bothered by what sometimes feels like a snub by other posters. I'm quite new here, but to me it does at times feel as though we've been assigned the position of second class citizens and not quite true taken in hand material.

Thank you,
Brenda

What do you mean when you say that you can only take charge because you are equal partners?

What does "take charge" mean to you?

What does "equal partners" mean to you?

Have you discussed in detail with her the kind of Taken in Hand relationship you both want?

I read the replies to my post and I'd like to say the following:

I was not equating submission with a lack of intelligence or clinginess, I merely stated that most of the girls I tend to date have those 3 attributes.

The kind of girl I want is a strong egoist and an intellectual and proud of it. I'm repelled by slavish self-sacrifice, clinginess, irrationality and submissiveness; the girl for me would be too. That's me. Another guy will have different preferences.

Why I posted was - I've been asking myself why I keep dating submissive, clingy, too eager to please girls. Answer, they're the only ones that will put up with me wanting to be in charge. Problem.

When I read the post by tophisme01, I saw a possible solution to my problem. He wrote: "While I know my role is to take charge I have only been able to do so because we view each other as equal partners."

Equal partners is the key. I want an equal. That's important to me. I need a girl that I can respect. But I also need a girl that will be attracted to my masculine dominance. Tophisme01's post gave me the idea that maybe there is a girl out there for me—a strong egoist intellectual who's looking for an intellectual equal that takes charge and gets the job done.

Tyler,

I know what you mean. You're looking for the right combination of qualities in a woman and are having a hard time finding it.

It could be that the masculine/dominant energy that you give off naturally attracts your polar opposite: submissive. I personally think that's a good thing. But there are all kinds of submissive women. Some with more undesirable qualities that you don't care for: clingy, self-sacrificing, not as intellectually sharp as you.

I can relate because for years I couldn't understand why as a submissive woman wanting a dominant man, I was never happy with the dominant man I got. They were controlling, demanding, irrational, moody, etc. And not leaders at all. Most wanted me to lead until it suited them.

I analyzed myself and the men I attracted and came to realize that the kind of man I wanted does not have those undesirable attributes. The kind I wanted would be steady, confident, loyal, have integrity, be as gentle as strong, be a natural leader but willing to listen to and consider my opinion, be Christian. Maybe not "wear" his dominance overtly but would have it all the same.

I didn't think such men existed and almost gave up hope, like you. But I found him!

What I had been attracting looked dominant on the outside but in reality, each of those men were insecure and lacked a strong, confident character. When I dated, I asked a lot of pointed questions that told me about who they were, and their values, and dominant nature (or lack thereof). Questions in general conversation so they never knew or felt I was testing them. I let them go the minute I realized I was making the same mistake (attracting a dominant exterior and weak interior).

Many women on this site are the type you want. Don't give up. Hone your dating skills. Find out through conversation the type of woman she is. Don't waste months. Date lots of different women and you'll get better and better at recognizing her unique qualities quickly and whether or not they match yours.

Good luck!

like so many others i stumbled onto this site by accident less than 3 weeks ago and have perused daily, sometimes several times a day!
i am a beautiful, independent, college educated, head strong girly girl who can change my own tires and oil in my car.
I LOVE BEING OBEDIENT AND SUBMISSIVE, though my husband doesn't want my complete obedience because he says that he's not perfect and makes some bad decisions. nonetheless, our relationship has blossomed in the last 2 weeks since i've been applying the principles i've read about like 'act as if' .
he says that i'm so different. he likes it, but is afraid it won't last.
my Darling Man doesn't want to 'hurt' me and i indeed i am averse to pain. i don't like being yelled at or corrected in anyway as i get my feelings hurt, but when he does i've learned to be quiet and not fight back. when i submit in this way, i've learned that he's usually right. he's been shocked at my lack of 'fight'!!!
our home is so much quieter, our boys aren't quite sure what's going on and keep telling us to 'get a room, you're gross!'
after 31 years with the same man, i am more in love than ever. had i found this site sooner, i would've been disgusted. i don't know what exactly made me ready to hear this now, but i'm embracing it all wholeheartedly.
i've read the Surrendered Wife and Fascinating Womanhood, as well as Created to be His Helpmeet.
if i weren't already married to the Man of my Dreams, i'd be your woman. i'm sure there are more of me out there!
Good Luck!

What I want is a girl that is my intellectual equal *and* who shares Ayn Rand's egoist philosophy or isn't opposed to it *and* who does not have a submissive personality and who takes charge confidently in her life *but* who doesn't want to act like my boss, leader or teacher *and* who is confident enough in herself to enjoy my bossiness.

If you deem Ayn Rand's female characters submissive because they enjoy a strong man fine but the girls I've dated have been submissive in a very different way, that those characters never would be. I like the Ayn Rand characters; I'm repelled by displays of submissiveness.

An analogy: Say you're arm-wrestling. The Ayn Rand woman will give a strong effort and be a worthy opponent even if she ultimately enjoys being beaten by my strength; the repellently submissive girls won't try to win - they submit. I don't want the kind of girl that submits in that way. I've read many posts on this site that make me think what I want is possible. I want a girl that I can bend to my will, not one that doesn't need to be bent to my will because she lives to please me. I want a girl that lives for herself first but who would get a kick out of a strong take-charge man like me bending her to my will.

I disagree, Jessica. The problem here is that there are many possible qualities that are called submissive, one of which Tyler evidently likes, another of which Tyler very much dislikes. I too dislike the word submissive, as do many Taken In Hand folk, because it is too wide and creates too many misunderstandings.

Tyler's lack of modesty about in his intellect may be off-putting but it is clear that he is saying that he wants a woman whose personality and ideas are more Ayn Rand than meek and self-sacrificial.

There are women who are submissive in the sense that they naturally please, serve and obey and have no need to be taken in hand because they are already thoroughly in hand; there are women who choose submission because they think it right, such as for religious reasons; and there are women who are only submissive in the sense that they melt in response to being bossed about and taken in hand by their husband.

On this site, we welcome women in all three groups, not just the first two. It is not, as one poster said (and I am very sorry to hear that she and others have not felt welcome here—you really are welcome!), that we have anything against submission, it is merely that unless we emphasise that women in the third group are welcome here, we get lots of spiteful posts castigating such women for being allegedly insufficiently submissive, and saying to such women who are single, if you want a dominant man you need to act more submissive, because that is what dominant men want.

Well yes, many do, but not all! Many men on this site actually prefer the idea of a woman in the third group, whom they can bring into line through their own actions, like Petruchio tamed Kate. And plenty of delightfully bossy take-charge men on this site do not identify with the word dominant. (The word dominant is similarly problematic!)

I would call a woman who likes being dominated by a man submissive, no matter what she might like to call herself.

If you go into an arm-wrestling contest with a man hoping he will beat you, then you're submissive. A non-submissive woman would be hoping to win, not lose.

Louise