This is a terrific, thought provoking article. Adelle

To the boss:

I agree with some of what you were saying in your article, but I really don't see much difference between Taken in Hand and DD. From what I can tell, both are about the man being in charge or the head of the household. I think that spanking and other punishments can be a part of either lifestyle, if that is what the couple chooses, but I don't think it is necessary in order to classify their relationship as Taken in Hand or DD. We are all different in what works for us as an individual. Spanking may not work as a deterrent of bad behavior for you...and as you say, not all women need their behavior modified...but some women do...some men too for that matter. LOL! Some women may need spanking or the threat of a spanking at times in order to really feel the man's control over her. Maybe she needs that kind of physical proof of his strength and his control...maybe she feels the need to push him at times...and needs him to push back in this way.

My personal belief is that women in general are attracted to alpha males because of some primitive instincts that go back to the beginning of mankind. I think it's a survival skill honed over thousands of years. Back then, it was important that a female pick the strongest male she could find for her mate...a male that could protect her and their offspring.

For me personally, I need a man who is stronger than me...which is saying something because I'm a very strong woman. Otherwise, I have a tendency to take charge of the relationship and then I get bored and I lose respect for the man. I can't love a man that I don't respect. I have a need to be submissive to the man that I love...but only to that man...not to men in general. I'm not a submissive person by nature. I don't necessarily need to be spanked or threatened with a spanking in order to feel a man's dominance. Sometimes a look, or quietly spoken words are enough...other times, I feel the need for a man to be more physical with me. Sometimes I need to feel a man's physical strength...and yes...it is a turn-on for me. Spanking is a turn-on for me too...although I have to admit that I actually don't like painful spankings...they are not erotic to me at all when they are happening. However, later I will tend to eroticize the experience...but I find that alpha males are erotic to me period...spanking or no spanking.

Having said all this, I must admit that I'm a divorced 38 year old woman with two children and I'm fully capable and do provide a stable home for my children and myself. I don't need a man to take care of me, or to correct my behavior...but when in a relationship with a man...I do need him to be dominant, otherwise I'm just not attracted to him sexually. I can be friends with a man who is not an alpha male...but I have no interest in being lovers with a man who is not. I don't really put a label on what it is that I need from a relationship with a man...it's just who I am and what works for me. Call it Taken in Hand or Domestic Discipline...call it whatever you like...just give me an alpha male and I'm a happy camper!

Thanks for the interesting article.

Laura

I see where you're coming from when you say some people start acting up more often in order to get what they long for. But this isn't ALWAYS the case. I was like that at first, when I first introduced domestic discipline to my guy, because I wanted to make sure he'd follow through with it. I learned it wasn't the way to go - and now I try hard to stay out of discipline's way. I do enjoy the feeling of being taken care of and looked after when I DO go astray, but I enjoy the feeling of knowing I'm doing the right thing even better, knowing that my boyfriend is proud of me for doing the right thing. I wanted domestic discipline because I know there's things about myself I want to improve. For me, and for many others, it's about self-improvement. And, like Taken In Hand, it's about the re-connection, and about keeping the relationship in a good shape, not letting silly small things ruin something wonderful.

I noticed you said a woman who had been battered and abused by someone, go to her and ask if she'd like DD. Well, in my early teens I was in a violent and abusive relationship, beaten up and raped many times. I hated it. Absolutely hated it, I just wanted to die, and even now, I'd love to get amnesia or something to forget it. But, it's SO different from DD. So very very different. Domestic discipline feels loving, I feel loved because my boyfriend is willing to help me improve myself. Our rules mostly consist of the things that I want to improve, ME. And I introduced it to him. So it's so very different, it's not like he wants to strut around showing he has a hold over me or anything, he does it because I asked for it, and it's what I want, and he does it because he loves me. Anyway I had a lot more to say but I sort of forgot lol. For the most part, I agree with what you were saying, but some things I didn't. Each to their own huh.

Laura, I think this will speak to many many women reading Taken In Hand:

For me personally, I need a man who is stronger than me...which is saying something because I'm a very strong woman. Otherwise, I have a tendency to take charge of the relationship and then I get bored and I lose respect for the man. I can't love a man that I don't respect. I have a need to be submissive to the man that I love...but only to that man...not to men in general. I'm not a submissive person by nature. I don't necessarily need to be spanked or threatened with a spanking in order to feel a man's dominance. Sometimes a look, or quietly spoken words are enough...other times, I feel the need for a man to be more physical with me. Sometimes I need to feel a man's physical strength...and yes...it is a turn-on for me. Spanking is a turn-on for me too...although I have to admit that I actually don't like painful spankings...they are not erotic to me at all when they are happening. However, later I will tend to eroticize the experience...but I find that alpha males are erotic to me period...spanking or no spanking.

So if this is a DD way of looking at things, then yes, I agree, there is no difference to speak of.

I certanly find the idea of a woman not being able to get herself to bed quite bizarre, but then I've never been a late-night person, I generally find it quite hard to stay awake once I've finished getting the children to bed.

I do find the concept of women being spanked even though they claim to not find it erotic very strange too, I have never had any trouble admitting I find it erotic, and find it quite baffling that anyone would allow themselves to be spanked if it did not arouse them. But, perversely, I find it very much more erotic if I can feel that it is 'real' punishment, it makes it very much more exciting.

I don't do things on purpose to get my husband to spank me (except, very occasionaly, for a little impertinence when I'm feeling frisky and haven't been spanked for a while). Things like carelessness, bad temper and rudeness occur naturaly, and I know I'll get spanked for those, but I don't usually do them on purpose. I do generaly get spanked several times a week, but my husband does this because he knows I want it, and if, as sometimes happens, he does bruise me, he won't usually spank me again until the bruises have faded (I sometimes find this very frustrating)

If your wife chooses to allow you to control her in this way, that's fine, but it is her choice. If she chose not to allow you to do these things to her, there would be nothing whatsoeve that you could do about it. To say that she has little to say about it is absurd. There is no legal or social reason for a woman in this day and age to allow a man any more control over her than she chooses, you and Noone are 'in charge' of your wives only because they allow you to be!

To the boss...

I wanted to comment on your article describing what you feel are the differences between DD and what you mean by Taken in Hand. A number of people, you mention Tevemer in your article, would feel Taken In Hand is simply another label for DD. I agree with this in part and I disagree in part. My objections to the presentation of the DD construct on web sites such as Mr Fondman's and Digit and Maryanne's, Bethany's, etc. are much the same as yours. Fondman wrote his web site as a single male with only a theory, the other two are more like D/s and use the term DD as a way to describe an element of their D/s practice, at least this is the way it appears to me. I don't think these ideas of DD being a tool or tactic within an overall relationship structure is how people with experience and mature relationships actually go about things. I am referring here to those couples who label themselves DD and distance themselves from the D/s label. Some will go the other way and consider D/s a part of their bedroom play, giving D/s a definition of only erotic enhancement. So, we have on the one hand a group who label their relationship structure D/s (it is how they relate) who use DD as a (misguided) tool for behavior management or modification and those in DD who use D/s as a role play for temporary sexual enhancement. What is wrong with this picture? Let us examine things in a bit more detail. You write:

To take the second bit first, my focus, and thus the focus of Taken In Hand, is on the idea of living under the control of a man -- not because men are superior, or biology or the Bible dictates it (as you may have noticed, I try to keep discussions of why off this site, because we all disagree and that is a different issue) but just because it is my preference. And the more in control the man is, the better, as far as I am concerned. It is erotic. It feels right. (If anyone jumps to the conclusion that I am saying that other preferences are wrong, I will feel like using intemperate language in exasperation at their wilful misunderstanding!)

I personally believe male control is a biological imperative rather than something that is only true for some men and some women. It is a behavior selection that has allowed evolutionary growth in humans taking the form of mother/infant bonding, sex for pleasure and a long period for offspring development before they reach adulthood. I think this male control as a natural selection will take a lot of different forms ranging from the strictly vanilla to the hardest extremes in BDSM practice but natural it must be because it seems the only way to give a female a fighting chance for survival in the evolutionary development of humans. The tactics may be different for different people but the underlying biological necessity for the woman to keep the male connected to the family instead of dispersing to get as many offspring as possible is the same. Male control does that and so is a useful strategy. I do think male control is much more erotic for some women than others and certainly some forms of control are more erotic for some women than others but behavior selection in evolution does not imply all members of a species are going to be equal. Still, male control in some form seems to be sexual in some way for nearly every woman I've come across even if some may adamantly deny it like we see in some rather extreme feminist views.

I think it important not to describe a set of actions and label them control because by so doing we limit our understanding of what others do.

The focus of the domestic discipline (DD) community is slightly different. The discussions on DD forums tend to be tightly focused on 'discipline', lists of rules and infractions, 'accountability', 'boundaries, limits and guidelines', 'consistency', and punishment, and how all this allegedly helps women's behaviour improve.

I agree with this or at least agree this happens a lot. I think it is okay for people in dysfunctional marriages to try some of this out as a way to 'teach' the kind of control the wife wants her husband to take but I do think the whole concept gets out of hand way too easy. DD really isn't about that by most who label themselves such. I never could understand the part about such a huge focus on the woman's behavior. It seems to me the husband's behavior is usually quite a bit worse but this is just my own life observation. I don't understand about limits and guidelines either. That sounds boring too me. I think for the most part it is a lack of understanding of their sexual need and so they make stuff up as they go along. Well, they are told “Do what works for you” and this is fine but, hey, isn't it okay to look at the experience of others?

I was already a little nervous that lost my husband's debit card because I did not put it in my wallet like I know I am supposed to do and he has told me to many times before. By the time we called it in missing somebody had already spent $75 on it. I knew I was in big trouble then. When I got home he wouldn't even talk to me cus he was so mad at me.

For those who like this kind of thing, great! But if so then I think it is a mistake to try to claim that what they are doing is really about behaviour modification. It clearly isn't. It is how they connect erotically, that's all. There is nothing wrong with that; I just find the ostensible explanations people give for what they are doing transparently false.

I agree here also. But again, these women visit sites like Bethany's, fondly and firmly, Digitand maryannes, and this is what they read about how DD is supposed to work. Managing behavior is the core need for wanting 'discipline.' Well, the core need is control. Control will always be the core need. Managing behavior is not a core need. This is absolutely absurd. I know, i know, this may be true for me but not for others! Hogwash. No one likes to be told how to live their lives and I'm certainly not doing that but some things we can know for sure. Like I know the sky is blue. I know the stars are really a long ways away. I know the core need is control. Some people may try to explain things in a way that are transparently false but I think this comes down to a lack of understanding and, in some cases unfortunately, a lack of ability to ever understand even the simplest concepts.

For example, how long did people believe the earth must be the center of the universe? Or how long did people believe the earth was flat because they couldn't see it as a circle? All one has to do is look at the horizon line to at least question this obvious falsehood but instead people chose to accept the dictates of their 'betters.' We see the same sort of thing happening here, people simply and blindly accepting the glaring inconsistencies and tortured concepts of those who claim to have authority. It is sad but it is still a misunderstanding and not an intentional deceit.

There seems to be quite a lot of self-delusion in the domestic discipline community. As I argued in these articles and these articles, the idea that domestic discipline of women is just like parents spanking their children is patently false.

I have read this idea of woman as a child creature. In my mind that particular notion is patently offensive because it seems to appeal only to prurient interests, in my opinion.

Many in the DD community are in denial about this, in my opinion.

Many people in the DD and BDSM community have some rather distorted ideas about why they do what they do.

Nor am I a woman who needs discipline, ‘domestic’ or otherwise. I am a fully-functioning, competent, able adult whose parents were sticklers for formal etiquette. I know how behave impeccably, and I don't need a good thrashing to 'teach me the errors of my ways', any more than any man does (and quite possibly a good deal less!).

We recently had this discussion on 1DD. What do we mean by discipline? The objection was that if were not trying to correct a behavior or change an attitude then how could we possibly describe what we do as discipline? Well, we are trying to change behaviors, change attitudes. In fact, we are trying to change them to the extent that we actually change the whole relational style of a couple in a marriage or relationship.

If you want to change a specific behavior, you start with introducing a 'control' behavior. For example, when I decided to stop drinking I introduced the control behavior of 'one day at a time.' and so every day I would allow this control behavior to keep me from drinking for that one day. Control behaviors can be anything depending on the behavior you are trying to manage or modify. Some don't work and some simply involve too much risk to be useful. For example, a wife may want to control her husbands drinking and so she tells him every time he drives anywhere he must take the children with him. The wife wants to control the behavior of drinking and so she puts her children in the car with a drunk. Well, it works for some people, some fathers don't drink with their children in the car. Some mothers hate the results. Not a good control behavior, obviously. The point is that a control behavior to be effective must have acceptable risk, be easy enough to enforce and actually accomplish what it is supposed to accomplish.

In DD, we are not really considering one or even several behaviors but normally a wide range of behaviors ranging from the most obvious to the most subtle. We institute usually several different control behaviors such as 'final say'. There is usually some misunderstanding of this concept and for the most part I don't think people really explain it very well. Apparently, I don't.

I understand the application of this discipline as being a relational adjustment rather than blind permission for the husband to exercise unilateral power and control. We are not talking about a patriarchy. 'Final say ' is simply a useful, acceptable risk and effective control behavior to get a couple to relate in some sort of reasonable way. It works well in situations, for instance, where the wife has a relational style that is aggressive,; i.e.. she tends to yell and scream a lot and the husband is more reserved and would rather talk things through calmly instead of fighting. Giving the consent for final say is a simple way to change their relating style though it probably doesn't change the course of any really significant or life changing decisions. "Final say' also has the clear advantage of giving the couple a way of effectively handling catastrophic life events such as the loss of a job, the death of a child or any of a number of natural or man made disasters such as hurricanes or the like. The point is this discipline need not be limited in its application because the intent is to allow both the husband and wife some way of feeling their real feelings and sharing their hopes and dreams. Like any good control behavior, 'final say ' can have many deeper uses than what appear superficially. Like 'one day at a time' has many more uses for me than it did the first day I used it. I'd say for its purpose, 'final say' is a fine discipline.

So, yes, boss, I'd guess you are likely a woman who needs some kind of discipline as long as you don't define DD as spanking.

I cannot remotely identify with the idea that women are out-of-control childish creatures in need of a firm hand, while men are paragons of self-control and all other virtues in the known universe and quite possibly a few more besides. We are all human beings; we all make mistakes; and I don't think it is helpful to pedastalise men in this way.

For me, being under a man's authority is about retaining our awareness of one another as being different from each other. It is about being aware of myself as a woman, and being aware of the man as being a man rather than sexless/unisex.

In order to live like this in practice I think requires some form of discipline in the form of any number of control behaviors such as 'final say' if it applies or any number of possibilities. I especially like devices such as this because their applications can be so varied or so flexible. But any number of behaviors are possible.

I also think what you describe is the primary distinction between a Taken In Hand community (including traditional DD) which uses primarily spanking as the sexual impact behavior and BDSM which can run a gamut of some odd seeming and rather horrifying sounding 'stuff.' You want to relate to a man and you want to relate to him as a woman. I think in the BDSM community in general, the operating agenda is to relate to each other as either a 'dominant' or a 'submissive' and gender has very little to do with anything. i think if we are going to make any distinctions we must distinguish between relational differences like this rather than depth of understanding and I personally do not see any difference between the man/woman connection in what you describe asTIH and DD. I think they are the same. I think there is a huge difference between this and the bDSM community.

Another problem I personally have with domestic discipline is that the heavy focus of DD forums on 'discipline' is at the expense of all other forms of expressing control. I personally would like to see a more general focus on the idea of the man's authority and control instead of on punishment and in particular, spanking. When spanking is the focus, people seem to lose sight of more subtle forms of control, and indeed, more extreme forms of control.

I can sympathize with this. One of the problems people have in both DD and BDSM is they describe behaviors as being either dominant or submissive but my own experience in power exchange tells me we need not make such definitions. I am dominant when I switch because the connection involved allows me a particular experience in which I feel a change in my own perception of how I relate and connect to the world. I need Annie for this because this kind of perception requires an interaction with another human being. By Annie giving me consent (she says she loves me in a different way) this magnificent gift allows me to control how I perceive the world around me and will change how I relate to it and to Annie forever. It's pretty powerful stuff.

I believe you are right about DD. From what I have read a lot of people advocating DD are still denying their soul what truly is going on. I do not believe that it's about improving behavior. If God forbid something should happen to their husband would these women run naked in the streets committing every foul act around just because the is no one to take them over his knee?

No of course not. Unlike you though I do need to be spanked, But NOT to keep me from becoming some kind of menace to society. It along with other forms of dominance cleanses my soul. Clears my mind, makes me feel safe and connected to my husband.

Some (not all) DD couples I believe are afraid to say that their very soul cries for this kind of attention. Instead they fool themselves to believe it has nothing to do with sexuality or their deeper needs.

Unfortunately religion plays a role in this as well. Don't get me wrong, I'm for religion. I am not for pretending feeling sexual desire has nothing to do with why we (women) crave a strong man. And I don't believe that Christ ever intended for the Bible to determine what a couple should and should not feel they want and need. Not all relationships are the same, you can't learn how to be married to your (specific) partner from a book, class, or even spiritual leader. It's a journey of self discovery that never ends and always changes.

I have found Taken In Hand a lot different than other DD sites. I have seen a lot of males on Taken In Hand, but I see mostly females. On other DD sites, it's just the opposite. I belong to one called Fondly and Firmly. If you read through some of their postings, you will see the big difference. Taken in Hand seems to be more relaxed. There seems to be more...umm...varieties of DD. I'm having a hard time trying to explain that. Mr. Fondly is very strong in how he feels in how a man should be disciplining his wife. And the wives should be more obediant. We tend to follow the stricter DD. I see in Taken In Hand that there is a lot of contraversy over what DD is. I have posted several different messages and there is always a reply where people don't agree with me. There seems to always be an argument. I understand that Taken In Hand is just about all the different ways a person could be taken in hand, but when one starts talking about DD, I believe they should understand that DD is about total surrender. Not partial surrender. If I say I am a better person because of the discipline my husband gives me, I don't understand how a person could argue that point if I am coming from a DD relationship. Yes it does change your character. I used to be this loud abnoxious person. That was my character. Now I am quiet and low voiced. It's not just about changing your behavior. After all as we grow up from children and we get punished, the punishments we get are what make up our character. How can you argue that? I think DD is more direct. Yes that's it. That is the big difference. It's more direct. I have very strict rules that I have to abide to. It's not just an attitude, it's a way of living. I mean I haven't been living like that long but I understand that it involves a total life change. The way I used to dress, the amount of makeup I use to wear. The manner in which I talk to my children, the way I respond to my husband when I am in a mood or not feeling well, and the way I behave around friends or in public. Also, a lot of people seem to want to keep their relationship hush hush around family and friends, if you are living in a life changing surrender, how can you hide that and why would you want to. My family all know and yet they say I am so much happier. They don't judge me. I mean when we are with family, they wont hear me getting spanked, but they will certainly see my husband letting me know he isn't going to take any of my crap. And that's if I even dare to misbehave infront of others.

I went to this other site just to check and see what their idea of DD was and all I saw was older gentlemen flirting with younger women. I know in a DD relationship, there is no reason for a husband to be flirting with a younger woman. I'm sure it can happen, but not like what I was seeing over there. Like it was the common thing to do. In a DD relationship why would you even want to take the chance of your husband finding out you were talking to another man in private or being talked to. I am not even aloud to talk to strangers unless they go through my husband first. That's just being a lady. And thats another point, I believe that being in a DD relationship molds you into a lady. I am not talking about any lady out on the street as in female. I am talking about a feminine: quiet, properly dressed, keep your legs crossed, no cursing, no spitting, knowing when to speak, having your husband pull out your chair, open doors, etc etc... To me if you are living in a relationship of DD and you are not involved with these practices, then your not really living in a DD relationship. Speaking of cursing, I have to apologize, earlier I posted a message in another area and used a word I shouldn't have. It wasn't a curse but still it was a word that a lady should never say. I am still fairly new at this. Some old habits still haunt me.

I think after today I will have to reconsider how much time I am spending on my computer. Sometimes I just want to talk to other ladies that go through the same thing I do.

I should mention that http://fondlyandfirmly.com has a link to takeninhand.com

Spanking for disipline purposes has been very effective for us. it is done in complete privacy and not discussed with anyone. after consentual agreement, our life has more meaning and hours formerly of discussion, silence, going on for days is eliminated. the process of giving a real old fashioned spanking can be done in fifteen minutes. the pain may linger but not more than overnight and the next morning thanks are given and promises kept so the process is not repeated.

Taken In Hand is closer to DD than to D/s. D/s is so loaded down with tedious sterotypical roles, rituals and (to my mind) rather distasteful BDSM paraphenalia. Taken In Hand is about real relationships, not pre-defined roles like 'dominant' and 'submissive'. Taken In Hand women generally do not identify with the 'submissive' label, despite the fact that they strongly prefer to be in a relationship in which the husband is in control in reality. I and many other Taken In Hand folk reject the standard D/s ideas, and favour a more evolutionary, individual approach. Give me DD over D/s any time. But as you say, this article was about my problems with DD, and I consider myself neither DD nor D/s, but Taken In Hand.

My husband has never suggested using any other form of punishment apart from spanking, it does not seem to have ever occured to him. However, there are some punishments that I have seen described that, if he chose to use them, would definitely make me feel alienated from him rather than making me feel closer to him as spanking does.

Therefore, if he started wanting to do those things to me, I might begin to feel distanced from him, which I don't think would be a good thing. 'Topping from the bottom' doesn't come into it, it's about what is going t bring us closer, and what is going to drive us apart. I don't regard a Taken In Hand relationship as being some kind of endurance test to prove how submissive I am by what I will put up with. It's about what makes us get along better and being subjected to punishments I found alienating r ather than connecting would not be of benefit to the relationship.

Louise

I find being punished so powerfully erotic that I think most punishments other than spanking would be a turn-on for me rather than a turn-off. That is, even if they were something that I really didn't like, like being banned from using the computer or something, the fact that it was a punishment would make it an erotic experience for me.

My only experience of this was one day about a year ago when my husband was furious with me because I'd done something that had made a mess of the kitchen. "I want the kitchen cleaned up" he said to me "and you're not to put on the computer or the TV until it's done, and if any parcels come for you you're not to open them until I say so." Then he went up to his office. I cleaned up the kitchen, I didn't touch the computer or the TV, and a parcel that came for me was left lying on the dining room table until he came down again.
"I'm glad to see you're doing as you're told" he said to me sternly. "I wouldn't dare do otherwise" I replied.

While not being able to go on the computer, and not being able to open a parcel that had come for me, are things that I regard as serious inconveniences, the mere fact that I had been ordered not to do those things made not doing them highly erotic. They certainly didn't make me feel distanced from him. And I think the same would be true of most punishments. Although they might be things that in theory I wouldn't like doing, in practice the mere fact of them being punishments would render them highly erotic to me.

In the case of certain physical punishments I have read about other than spanking, I think that having them done to me would be disturbing in a way that might render them un-erotic, and in those cases I think they would create distance rather than closeness.

I don't really believe in the 'no matter what' relationship. I think everyone has limits, and there is always the possibility that there might be something that you will say 'no' to.

Louise

you´re right!

if spanking were the only way for a man to express his control and leadership, boy- what a weak man he would be!

I could not be able to show any respect to a man like that.

In the 8 years I am in his hands....I tasted his hands otherwise then tenderly just 6 times. Last year no spanking
has taken place at all, it just hadn´t been necessary.
And.....I didn´t miss it at all! It hurts when I have to
feel, that I had made mistakes. So I try to give my best, to make my husband feel happy. Sexuality doesn´t need spanking sessions either. To obey the rules, to follow my man is part of my life but I never crave for a blistered bottom! BUT: if he decides I deserve one, I take it without arguing. .....and act in every day life in a way to avoid him getting as mad!

Like you said: It just feels right, that´s all .

I agree with you, Louise. Those forums don't reflect the way I feel about Taken In Hand in any way. On the one hand they say they NEED and WANT a DD relationship ....... and on the other, they say there is nothing they hate more than being "punished" for "misbehaving." The word "misbehaving" is usually only used when referring to kids. We don't say adults "misbehave" do we? More likely we'd say they "behave badly," but the DD women you're writing about clearly get a thrill (despite their protestations to the contrary) from infantalizing themselves as naughty misbehaving children. It also gets me mad that they seem so proud of behaving so poorly and treating their husbands so poorly. I hope the husbands are as into it as these women are, or their marriages are surely destined to fail. I'm glad this site is for the most part free of those kinds of posts.

I've been reading and participating on a site for DD that is very interesting, precisely because there are so many contradictions in feelings, behaviors, thoughts, etc. Many of the women are struggling to understand themselves and their needs for physical discipline. The extent to which it's spoken of as a bit of a game is quite interesting; the spankings and corner time and rules broken all imply a game with specific rules and roles each partner is supposed to fulfill. One of the unspoken rules is that the woman must consistently break the man's stated rules so as to fulfill the contract between them. It's an ongoing game, one with no endpoint, for it serves the purpose of keeping them both engaged in the relationship. Its entire purpose is to keep the two people together, not to 'cure' or 'fix' any supposed 'faults' in the wife.

As a sociology experiment, it's quite fascinating to watch. There's a lot of unhappiness expressed that the woman isn't living up to a higher moral ideal both she and her husband want her to aspire to, and a lot of angst that she is resisting submission to his control and authority. I find these discussions fascinating, because they are never-ending and unresolveable, if looked at on the surface. There is no goal in sight, no end-point, unless it is to someday become so 'good' that one no longer 'needs' disciplinary spanking, which hurts in a way no overtly erotic spanking does, according to the DD posters.

In this way, the marital bond is reminiscent of the Victorian era, when it was a husband's duty to discipline his wife, because, as head of the household (whether he was fallible or not) he, of necessity due to his exalted role as the man in the family, knew 'best' and was considered morally and ethically superior to his wife. This is an attitude that had died out amongst most groups of people in Western society. The problem is what that system of belief was replaced with: the message that men are idiots, incapable of tying a shoelace without direction. This was a message that clearly needed to be balanced with something more realistic and profound.

I have to add that it's my belief that all physical 'discipline' is erotic. In fact, all interactions between men and women, when they are not about the bank balance, or the best strained pablum for a new baby, can be erotic, under certain circumstances. Feeling that erotic thrill knowing that if there's energy tonight you will be touching each other's flesh is always exciting. I consider discipline another form of foreplay... and yes, it does feel like a fetish, most definitely, broadly defined. Anything that makes you aware of each other as sexual beings is erotic and thrilling, when used with the ultimate intention of giving pleasure. It's just that to get to the pleasure, many human beings are 'wired for' a fair amount of pain, and I don't see anything wrong with that.

Physiologically and psychologically then, discipline fulfills many needs, and I hope we do not stop talking about this dynamic, since it's so complicated and interesting.

Louise, that poem is wonderful, and I believe summarizes what most of us believe.

Eight years ago when I was trying to find a way to save my marriage (it was mostly my fault it was running off in a ditch), I searched the internet after I searched my soul and finally admitted to myself what, in my heart, I know I needed. My search took me to Vickie Blue's site, which, in turn, led me to DD. Just finding sites that encompassed my desire in any way or form made me elated. I didn't stop to analyze the name or label that was given to it -- I was just glad it had some sort of name. I knew I wasn't into BDSM or D/s -- that it was something else I craved, some other type of relationship. When I found the DD sites, well...I just didn't think to keep looking for something else. So I resided there for a while. A long while.

I began to find that, as my rebooted relationship with my husband began to mature, I was no longer happy with the DD sites. I didn't feel I fit, as I seemed to get the impression the majority of the female on those sites sounded like they were in their 20's, and I was so very not. Something made me search again, and lo and behold, I found this Taken In Hand site. Here, I feel I belong. The people seem more mature (and their writing and grammar is a great deal better!), and it does seem a bit calmer here -- more thoughtful. The name Taken In Hand even sounds less harsh, and a bit old fashioned, which evokes memories of old black-and-white movies. (Perhaps it is just that I am older that this appeals to me?)

I once fit quite well with the DD community -- when I was all excited and breathy that I had found other people just like me. But however you wish to label it, and however you practice it, it's still the same. I'm sure whoever it was who came up with the term "domestic discipline" was just looking for something to call it. It was just the first site I found, and I'm just glad I found it, glad I found anything like it, whatever the label. And whatever the label, there are always going to be extremist, and people who want to put definitions neatly in a box, but I don't think it's really important. I think you stay in a site where there are people and discussions with whom you feel comfortable and identify, no matter what the title of the site.