Carl, I'm sorry, but there MUST be consent. Otherwise, there could be very serious consequences...

"No, there does not need to be consent."

That was the phrase that rather alarmed me...if it is taken as general advice, rather than a description of his particular case. I have read several postings here warning that there must indeed be consent, for serious legal reasons. Of course, I am referring to general consent, rather than consent for every particular action...but that consent can be withdrawn if the actions become too severe.

But there are some women who don't want to consent - who don't want to give permission - who, in fact, want to say "no" and mean it and have it done to them anyway, despite the fact that they hate it.

I gave blanket consent in the beginning when we first starting talking about Taken In Hand and the implementation of DD. Still, I completely understand not wanting to say 'yes' to a punishment. I'm normally too wrapped up in my hissyfit to fully believe I even need to be corrected.

Some of us like to be able to say 'no' in the heat of the moment and really mean it. The thing is, even if I do say 'no' I don't want to derail my significant other. I want him to push through, show me I can't bend his will. I'd probably be distraught if he backed off after I said no.

You said you'd been married a very long time to your wife, and taking the process of changing your relationship to Taken In Hand slowly as well. I know I shouldn't assume but I assume you know your wife well enough to know that she was giving consent in her own way. The phrase ""... BUT ONLY IF YOU SHUT UP ABOUT IT AND JUST DO IT!"" leads me to believe that she was at the very least WILLING to try it. I mean she did tell you to 'do it'.

Sure, everyone should have the "Do you consent to this?" talk and sometimes things just fall into place.

I understand the concerns of those who say that there must always be consent.

In particular, it is important to avoid misleading newcomers to this site.

On the other hand, there are women who want to be taken in hand without giving consent. My wife is one of them, and there are others.

For the husbands/partners of these women, it is particularly challenging to wrestle with the whole notion of non-consent.

It would be useful if "non-consenting" women and their men had a series of articles to read that could help them along their path.

Both men and women would probably appreciate having a place to send their mate, saying "Read this!".

In order to create a resource, I would like to propose a collaborative process where multiple contributors share what we can to specifically address the issues of non-consensual Taken In Hand.

This is a sensitive subject and it is going to be important that we respect each other's viewpoints.

Specifically, can we please agree that:

1. Most Taken in Hand relationships should be consensual.
2. Some women do not want to give consent (they want to be Taken In Hand against their will or without explicit consent).
3. Some non-consenting women do not want to even talk about it (they just want their men to do it).
4. These women have legitimate needs/hopes/desires and we should respect them and their needs.
5. Taking non-consenting women in hand can be particularly challenging, and men attempting to do so may need more help than most men at this site.
6. Because of the sensitive nature of this subject, discussions in this thread should be particularly respectful and non-critical of other peoples views.

With this introduction, I would like to ask for posts on the subject of non-consensual Taken In Hand.

In particular it would be very helpful to hear from:

Women who want to be taken in hand without having to give full consent.
Women who want their men to "just know what to do" and not have to ask.
Women who don't want to talk about it, just want to do it.
Women who already are in a Taken In Hand relationship that is non-consensual in some way.
Men who have relationships with women in the above categories.
Men who are considering relationships with women in the above categories.
Men and women who have some insight that they believe may be helpful.

Thank you
CarlF

My wife and I recently agreed to begin a Taken In Hand lifestyle. We've been married more than 20 years - happily! - but after I came across this website I approached her about considering making a change in our lives together. She's a professional woman, very strong-willed, a superb mother and my best friend. (No, we're not perfect; Yes we have had major issues in our past, but we're still here and we're stronger than ever.) She read many articles and comments over the next few days. She came to me and said she couldn't believe it, but she'd been wanting something like this for us.

We talked and talked and read and read some more. We both agreed that: #1 yes, we want to pursue this; #2 yes, she trusts me implicitly; #3 yes, she gives her consent to me to lead our relationship more firmly than I had in the past.

Bottom line (FOR US - we would never judge anyone else's relationship) is that because she TRUSTS me, she is willing to give her CONSENT. I do not believe that either one of us would have considered this lifestyle as recently as 5-10 years ago. But, we have found that for whatever reason, this works for us. She's happier, I'm happier, and we're even more in love than we were before.

We have one problem and that is that she is frustrated with me asking her whether or not she's still comfortable with our choice. She told me, quite impatiently, the last time I asked about her comfort level, that as far as she is concerned, we've made the choice..... she agrees and wants this..... and I should shut up about it!

Frankly, it has taken me a while to become comfortable in my new role. I'm typically a take-charge type of person, but as we discussed our lives, we agreed I had become a little too complacent and she was really hoping I'd re-assume my authority and be her Husband.

This lifestyle is our secret; we don't, and never will, "kiss and tell." It may not work for others, and we would never discuss this outside the safety of this forum. It's between me and my wife.

The trust she has in me is complete - and because of this she is willing to consent to our agreement. So, for us, it's a matter of both trust and consent. We wouldn't have it any other way.

I think that we all actually agree, but we are not always using consent to mean the same thing.

Consent, as a basic willingness to participate, must be present as a fundamental part of a Taken In Hand relationship, and every other relationship. Without this requirement, any man would be allowed to do anything that he wanted to any woman whom he could overpower.

Then, the legal environment is one reason why the specific interactions that we are discussing are a good idea only with a woman who is emotionally mature and self-aware, who takes responsibility for her decisions and accepts that mistakes will happen, and who is not vindictive. (Don’t forget that some women feel entitled to change their minds after the fact and believe, for example, that if they later wish they had not wanted to have sex, then it must have been rape.)

Comments such as those on this thread are valuable because they describe desires that masculine men cannot know from personal experience. The best that we can do is to observe and infer, and extrapolate from our complementary needs. But we can’t know for sure, unless our women care enough to tell us.

Masculine men can start such a relationship by gradually increasing their dominance and focusing their control on the well-being of their women, while carefully observing the effects of their actions. And the reasons for these effects may not always be obvious or simple. For example, see the excellent explanation What spanking can do for some women, which is the second reply to I KNOW I need a spanking, but WHY do I need it?

And, as Katie also wrote on that thread:

I’m a very take-charge woman in many areas of my life. …However, in my personal life, I have noticed that I respond in a very basic “female” way to a masterful man. I seem to have no control over this nor do I want any. I want to be overwhelmed by his masculinity. His strength and the fact that he can overpower me physically and psychologically drive me to speechless ecstasy. … I have been spanked before by a man who wanted to “break the ice” and though I protested vigorously, I remember being turned on by his control. I think this has something to do with some ancient wiring of the sexes where the woman desires connection with the dominant male for protection and survival purposes. There is something about a “dangerous” man who uses his power to sexually control and possess me that speaks to some deep primal thing inside me. I definitely think it is the male, female thing. A man who is not strong and lovingly in control does not make me feel safe. I was raised by my father to value education and have my own opinions and creative spirit but none of that has quenched this “female” need.

But even if they think that men should simply assume that this is the case, women still need to help their men fully understand their needs and the effects that their actions are having.

“Some of us like to be able to say ‘no’ in the heat of the moment and really mean it. The thing is, even if I do say ‘no’ I don’t want to derail my significant other. I want him to push through, show me I can’t bend his will. I’d probably be distraught if he backed off after I said no.”

Masculine men tend to find it easy to be “benevolently” dominant, but a man who loves his woman will be hesitant to take risky activities, especially those that could cause invisible emotional damage, to the point of being real. He will insist on learning her vulnerabilities and what can injure her, before he will be willing to ignore “please stop.”

I am a Taken in Hand woman who has, at times, NOT consented to some of the things my husband has done in order to maintain the dynamic of our relationship. He has done things to me sexually against my will, as well as using physical punishment against my will. There have been times where I have pleaded with him and begged him to stop. I’ve sobbed and cried. I’ve even fought him physically when I don’t want him to do something.

But here’s the thing. My husband does have my “blanket consent” or “consensual non-consent.” He knows that we both desire a Taken in Hand relationship and that he has no official “boundaries” when it comes to maintaining that.

He chooses how and when he will exert his control over me. Sometimes I wholeheartedly DON’T want him to. Sometimes that means that I hate the actual things he does to me during that moment, but afterwards I feel peaceful and happy that my husband’s authority and control is real. We have no safewords. I have no “out.” If it were any other way, it would not be real to me.

I want my husband to have the ability to actually force his will on me at times. I don’t want him (at times) to force his will on me and I don’t want to submit, but I do want him to be able to, even in spite of my protestations. I want him to MAKE me submit. He has my consent to use means he deems necessary to achieve that end, but sometimes he does things I don’t specifically consent to or want.

But what this seemingly extreme approach actually means in practice would depend on the changing needs of a specific woman. The idea is not to be as severe as possible, but rather to nudge her over her tipping points, whatever and wherever they may be. This will allow her emotional experience to expand way out of proportion to any physical effects, instead of overwhelming her and causing her to shut down and just wait for it to be over.

With respect to consent, the essential distinction is between consent in life and consent in the moment.

A woman gives blanket consent, in their life together, so that she can experience, in the moment, the emotions, arousal and incredible intensity that are possible only if she has no “out” and the activities and levels are a bit beyond what she would have chosen for herself.

This allows her to experience the reality and intensity of both his actions and her helplessness, to experience the full range of her emotions, to be able to say “no” and resist and really mean it and then, once it is over, to love having been forced to endure, and to “feel peaceful and happy that her husband’s authority and control is real.”

But, before she gets to that position, a woman should first ensure that her man “knows her well enough to know when something is pushing her boundaries or is hurting her beyond the point that she can really handle … and will never cross that line … will push her boundaries, but never abuse his power.”

It is especially important, as Hera said, for a very submissive woman to be certain that she is with someone who will look after her, since even though she knows that she has the right to make something stop or to leave a relationship, it is not easy in practice for such a submissive woman to exercise that right even when she feels that she should.

These tendencies of very submissive women to acquiesce and hide their injuries are one reason why I think that trying to “just know” what a woman needs can be a very bad idea. Men and women can be naturally dominant and submissive but, beyond that, there is endless variability, and what is not far enough for one woman may be devastatingly far for another.

When she is certain that her man understands everything that is relevant, a woman who desires this type of a relationship could give him “blanket” or “non-consensual” consent explicitly once, with the firm understanding that it can be withdrawn only during a neutral conversation and never when her limits are being pushed.

This type of consent could be superfluous when “things naturally just fall into place,” possibly as a consistent and rapid progression, in small increments. This can happen when a couple is very compatible, open and honorable, when the man is dominant and confident, and the woman is responsive, expressive and communicative.

While this may not be rare, it is certainly not the norm, and there is a fine line between observing and understanding your woman, and constantly evaluating her reactions as a form of “permission.”

And so, by eliminating the guessing games, uncertainty and hesitancy, an explicit understanding can make everything more real.

I want to thank you for this thread from the depths of my heart, and the pit of my gut! I have sent this link to JohnB, because it puts into words, through all of the posters, what I have felt so deeply, my whole life.

I find it incredibly difficult to express my needs - and nearly impossible, most of the time, to express my desires, because I have always been in the role of care-taker of the whole family, putting my needs after their wants! Via this thread, I have been able to communicate that even though my mouth, and even my body language may be saying, 'no!', my deepest desire is for him to stand firm and ignore those pleas - even if they seem angry, at the time.

We have not yet reached a point where this has come up, but then again, I have still not been able to move to be near him, yet - and will have to remain here until school gets out at the end of May. (I don't want to move my daughter to another state, in the midst of a school year) No wedding date has yet been set, and the engagement has not even been formalized - but they are coming, and I know that this situation WILL come up, at some point.

This thread has allowed us to address the issue before it becomes an issue. I cannot even begin to say just how deeply and beautifully this whole site has affected our relationship and future, together.

Thank you, again, (both Taken In Hand and CarlF!)
kitten

And so, by eliminating the guessing games, uncertainty and hesitancy, an explicit understanding can make everything more real.

For us, it's the other way around. Having an explicit understanding - having explicit permission - would make it a game.

Punishment with consent wouldn't be punishment and it wouldn't be an exercise of authority. It would be playing or pretending. It would be a facade.

In fact, most couples want a facade. Most women want the ability to call it off if they change their minds. But that leaves the woman in charge. That means that the whole thing is "by her leave".

The uncertainty, the "guessing game", the fact that the husband is taking a genuine risk (albeit a small one) means that he is making a real judgement call.

When I took my wife in hand a little more than a week ago, I had to make sure that I brought her to submission. I had to bring her to an emotional state where she felt under my control. If not, if I had stopped when she was angry and still saying "no", she would have pushed away from me.

My wife is taking a risk (that I might abuse my authority). That risk is balanced by my risk (that she might change her mind afterward and leave me). Both of those risks are small, but they are both there.

I have a very long history of radical opposition to hitting a woman. The likelihood that I am going to hit her too much is incredibly small. But "incredibly small" isn't the same thing as "zero".

It's kind of like riding a roller-coaster: there is very little risk of the roller-coaster running off the tracks but it is a risk in the back of the rider's mind. People do occasionally get killed on roller-coasters.

Without that small risk, the thrill wouldn't be as great.

Some would argue that there needs to be explicit permission before a husband spanks his wife. Those people who make this argument either don't live in a long term committed taken in hand relationship or perhaps don't have the level of trust that exists in a loving taken hand relationship.

You are so full of yourself!!!

For us, it's the other way around. Having an explicit understanding - having explicit permission - would make it a game.

Punishment with consent wouldn't be punishment and it wouldn't be an exercise of authority. It would be playing or pretending. It would be a facade.

When my husband paddles me it is punishment and it really hurts, and it is HIS choice and he doesn't let me get away or talk him out of it (believe me I try like my butt depends on it) :-). But he cares enough to KNOW what I need and what would be bad for me. We talked before we started anything, and now all of the time, and I HAVE TO tell him everything, so we have “explicit understanding”. My husband has “explicit permission” because he has “explicit understanding”. He doesn’t guess or pretend he knows and then experiment on me. I gave him “explicit permission once” by telling him explicitly how I am inside, because he FORCED me to even though it was embarrassing, so when HE makes decisions for me and for us he would be moral, to use CarlF’s religious terms. Don’t you people see that John was talking about “understanding what is relevant” to be able to be a husband who is sure that what he is doing is good?

The uncertainty, the "guessing game", the fact that the husband is taking a genuine risk (albeit a small one) means that he is making a real judgement call.

Wives come to my hospital after their husbands play “guessing games” and make “real judgment calls” and “take genuine risks” (but with other people’s lives!). They say “he is a man and this is how he shows me he loves me” and then they curl up and cry in a corner. Maybe those who start to learn in years what other men learn in months and even weeks should be more humble.

Hitting a woman without consent is wrong. No matter that it is what she wants, it's still wrong. Hence the need for forgiveness.

I don't normally like to put things in religious terms, but this seems apropos. I am choosing between two sins, spanking my wife without her permission or failing to give her what she needs/desires. Either of my choices is sinful and either way, I need forgiveness.

But that is the way of things in this world.

How is “what she wants” also “without consent”? Why is giving your wife what she wants and needs a sin? How do you know that this “is the way of things of this world”? You are so full of yourself too! John is a lot better at thinking and explaining, and I even get to learn new words. LOL!

"Some would argue that there needs to be explicit permission before a husband spanks his wife. Those people who make this argument either don't live in a long term committed taken in hand relationship or perhaps don't have the level of trust that exists in a loving taken hand relationship."

"You are so full of yourself!!!"

Well this is not the first time I have heard this lol...But I think you have mistaken my meaning. I am not arguing against explicit consent. For many couples this is vital, especially for men who can't proceed without it. I do not doubt that these people have a taken in hand marriage on their own terms. I have never argued that those couple's taken in hand relationships that have explicit consent agreements are less valid than those who operate on implicit consent. How could I make this judgment, I don't know them. Rather my point was directed toward those folk who can't accept that there are couples who have a taken in hand marriage w/o an explicit form of consent. It is directed at those folk who demand there be explicit consent or it is abuse.

If you have read from this and other forums, you must know there are many women who don't want their man to ask for permission before he takes her in hand. There are women who need their man to act on his own initiative. For those women it is vital that he has this authority to act. I think this is especially true in long term relationships where the couples knows each other so well - who know each other at their best and their worst. But hey....this is just what I think.

Stephen, Carl

I can see where you're both coming from but (I was interested, so looked up some definitions) 'forgiveness' can also mean to show a lack of resentment rather than a feeling that the other party has in fact done anything wrong. As we all say (ad infinitum and I understand why!) on this site, being taken in hand doesn't per se equal spanking, so if Carl likes to hear from his wife that she feels no resentment that this is the method that he has chosen to take her in hand at that moment, as opposed to scolding or any other form of showing his dominance, I don't find the concept strange in the slightest.

I know (please don't mis-read this folks, I KNOW it's not the same, OK?) that spanking a wife and disciplining a child in whatever way you feel is appropriate (and is legal in your country!) are DIFFERENT things, but if after you'd just had to punish him/her in some way, a child said, 'I forgive you, Daddy' ... in that solemn way when they try adult or 'church' language and don't quite get the register right ..., I would imagine that would melt your heart, and you wouldn't say or think, 'You little brat, you have nothing to forgive me for! I did nothing wrong! You deserved it!' No, you'd hug them back and say, 'I forgive you too.' I'd see this as the most loving (and Biblical to those of you for whom that is important) response from parent to child at that moment.

If I'm very honest, much as I find the ideas about consent, non-consensual consent, implicit, explicit, in the moment, specific et al highly erotic and fascinating to discuss ... at the end of the day, I can understand why a man whose wife has spent the last however many minutes crying and pleading 'no' to being spanked would be happy to know that she feels no resentment at that point. Not because she's implicitly agreed whenever it was that whatever it is might happen whenever he feels she deserves it, but RIGHT then and there while she's still physically very sore. I think that's connection and it's hot.

I certainly don't like to say what I want but you need some communication and lots of knowledge before you can safely do these kinds of things to women. I like to think consent is at the heart of it - the original consent, not moment by moment consent.

But I also know how easy it is to tolerate being abused. Someone above referred to the women coming into her hospital whose men had gone over the top and if you've put all your trust in the husband not to go further than is reasonable it is very hard to escape that relationship when it turns abusive.

When my husband paddles me it is punishment and it really hurts, and it is HIS choice and he doesn't let me get away or talk him out of it (believe me I try like my butt depends on it) :-). But he cares enough to KNOW what I need and what would be bad for me. We talked before we started anything, and now all of the time, and I HAVE TO tell him everything, so we have “explicit understanding”. My husband has “explicit permission” because he has “explicit understanding”. He doesn’t guess or pretend he knows and then experiment on me. I gave him “explicit permission once” by telling him explicitly how I am inside, because he FORCED me to even though it was embarrassing, so when HE makes decisions for me and for us he would be moral, to use CarlF’s religious terms. Don’t you people see that John was talking about “understanding what is relevant” to be able to be a husband who is sure that what he is doing is good?

Yes, if the woman is willing to be explicit, it makes life much much easier.

I could have forced my wife to be explicit. In fact, I considered it in the beginning (See my original post from four years ago and the associated comments).

However, her desire to not be explicit wasn't a whim nor was it an exercise in gamesmanship. It was a deep-seated need to not be in control. Also, she didn't completely understand her own needs/desires and didn't want to have to "talk it to death" in order to find out.

She wanted me to figure out what her needs were and fulfill them without her needing to understand it. In effect, she enjoys the fact that I know her better than she knows herself.

We had some rather comical arguments along the way, with me saying, "Tell me what you want," and her saying "What I want is to not have to tell you what I want. I don't want to know what I want until suddenly it's there."

I do a similar kind of thing with presents (birthday/Christmas/anniversary etc.). She likes to mix and match earrings with her clothes, but I noticed that she always wore one particular set of earrings with one of her blouses. I went through her earring collection and saw that she only had one pair in that color, so I bought her several more pairs of earrings that would coordinate with the blouse.

When she opened the box that had four pairs of teal earrings, she was puzzled. Then she said, "Hey, these will go with that blouse...". Until that moment, she hadn't noticed that she needed more than one set of teal earrings.

Of course, there is a lot more at stake when I'm trying to figure out how and why and when she needs to be taken in hand, but the effect is the same. She doesn't quite know why I'm doing something - or telling her to do something - but she does know afterward if it "felt right".

That's also why it took me four years of small steps and experiments to get it right.

I've never pretended that I knew what I was doing when I wasn't sure. She has always been very aware of the fact that I'm figuring it out (and making it up) as I go along.

She likes the uncertainty. She likes being experimented on. She likes the feeling of knowing that I'm constantly trying to figure her out.

Something very positive happened this past weekend. I've been holding off on writing about it until the discussions about consent ran their course. Well, that seems to have happened, so here is an update.

[See Explicit consent - finally! for the rest of this stimulating post. - The Editor]

Ok, I am a single member of this blog but I am also like CarlF’s wife. I do not want to talk about it, think about it (well maybe I will fantasize about it), or CONTROL it. If you can’t read my mind, read my body language. If you are still unsure, then ask. I come from a background of being seen and not heard so to express my feelings was at times and still is very difficult. There were very real, physical consequences if I did. I can freely express myself in a working situation, be very alpha and take-charge even as a woman. But in a relationship, that is entirely different. I struggle to speak of things that truly bother me, or need to express. I do not want to have to do so. I want the man to take the initiative and responsibility from me and to do what is needed to make me feel safe and happy and protected. I am intelligent enough to know you cannot read my mind, but I expect you to be interested enough to watch my reactions closely, only question me about the things that you simply cannot figure out on your own, and as CarlF has stated, experiment on me.
I am also intrigued by the theory of a “pain body” spoken of by the anonymous poster on Jan 26. I have never heard of this but can definitely identify with it. Many women, especially alpha prone females, seem to have this tendency. I know that personally I have days where I am full of self doubt or guilt for taking my strong personality traits to the extreme. An OTK episode can be very therapeutic and wanted, we just can’t ask for it. To do so takes some of the responsibility back on our shoulders and prevents that total cleansing that we wanted in the first place. As for the statement “…it may be preferable to dissolve the pain body permanently”, I do not think for women like myself that may have this “condition” it can be “dissolved” without serious harm to our psyche. We have this because it is a safety valve. It is the part of us that we use to release all our “bad” feelings. If we remove it, we have no such outlet and sooner or later will implode.

And finally on the subject of consent: I will discuss it once if you bring it up, but after that it is done. I have now given consent or rejected it. I do not want to discuss my agreement again. Odds are though that I will be the one to initiate a Taken In Hand relationship in the first place so the point is moot. By doing so, my partner will understand I want this. For the male seeking clarification or being the one wishing to begin a Taken In Hand relationship, I would agree with other posters to do this early in the relationship if you are single. It would not make me a happy camper if we start off on one foot then midway, you suddenly changed feet on me. Be honest as to why you want it also. It will help make things more clear for me and I can make an informed decision that will then be correct for me. If married for any length of time, you should have a feel for your woman by now. If you really want this, guide her to this site, give her as much time as she needs to digest it, and then open a discussion. Even though I have problems in expressing things I want, I have never had problems making myself heard when I adamantly was saying no.

Libby