Checking his suitability

To varying degrees, almost all women want their man to take charge. I realize that this may seem to not be the case at times, but consider this common interaction between a husband and wife:

Him: Wanna go out to eat?
Her: Sure. Where are we going?
Him: I don't know. Where do you want to go?
Her: I don't know. Where do you want to go?
Him: Oh.. I dunno... Anywhere is ok..

So then she throws a hissy fit because of his indecisiveness.

Why? Because women are evolutionarily designed to be attracted to the alpha male, the tribal leader. Decisiveness is a trait that an an alpha male possesses.

Even if the wife in the above example doesn't want to follow her husband's lead, she still wants him to at least try to lead.

If he suggests going to McDonalds, and she doesn't want to go to McDonalds, she'd still rather hear him say "McDonalds" than "I don't know. Where do you want to go?"

The latter response suggests that her husband is comfortable giving up his power to other people, and so, is a beta male. This causes her to lose attraction.

So, this is a way that the wife "tests" her husband to see if he is alpha or beta. A woman's mind is evolutionarily wired to feel attraction for men that exhibit alpha male behavioral cues. She may not even consciously understand the process.

It's actually in the woman's best interests that the man NOT understand that he is being tested. Because, if he knows he is being tested, he can consciously exhibit the appropriate behavior even if it isn't what he would naturally do.

Women are constantly testing men in different ways, observing their behavior, in order to subconsciously decide whether or not they should be sexually attracted.

Women obviously aren't going to tell us that they're testing us. And most of us men are ignorant of women's tests, so we just assume that when women try to tool us or control us that they're aggressive and dominant (or crazy).

But these women are more likely just trying to see if we'll LET THEM control us. Because if we'll let them do it, we're probably beta males, and thus, unattractive.

I think there are a lot of men out there that just don't understand how this works, and assume that women are aggressive, dominant, and/or crazy.

So they settle into a beta male role in the relationship. I'm not saying that all men are naturally alpha, but most probably at least have a latent alpha personality. Unfortunately, most men are conditioned by society to exhibit beta male behavioral cues.

There is usually only one alpha male in the tribe at a time. When he is overthrown by a beta male, the beta male transforms into the alpha male. Ever had to deal with a co-worker that was a great guy before he was promoted but afterwards turned into a complete dick? Latent alpha personality.

Perhaps most women wouldn't mind seeing sexy latent alpha behavior from their new manager, but we guys don't like it as much.

As for the reason that there are so few books on relationships for men, I'd guess that the answer is because we men have large egos and are not willing to accept advice. We already know EVERYTHING we need to know about women! Somehow we fail to realize that this isn't actually the case.


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I have literally been lurking

I have literally been lurking here for YEARS without becoming a member. Until now. Been done and done that regarding the whole "I don't know" thing when it comes to eating out, going somewhere, or doing anything in general, and a man that acts that way around me may as well be shoving kryptonite up in my face. That's not to say that if I had an opinion on where to eat/what to do, I wouldn't want it taken under consideration, but the bottom line is: don't waffle around about it. Make a decision and be done with it already.

Something to consider

It might be maybe you respect confident,decisive men. The on the fence post, indifferent responses you get when inquired brings up inner issues you have with men who don't up hold traits you respect. Perhaps your unaware or yet even honest with yourself about.

I myself, seem to have same issues when I have come across this .


Now I know why I always hated it when men can't decide where to go or what to eat. BuI i also had a boyfriend a few years ago who chose a restaurant and a movie whithout even asking me, and that annoyed me.


I can't even BEGIN to tell you how true this is!

suitability,.. decisiveness... test?

Where to go, what to eat... is this a first date or a man you adore? I like to dress appropriately and I dislike seafood but other than that, I want us both comfy. It's all about the company for me.

If it is our first date and I don't know his 'means' I prefer he select the restaurant. The ambiance and opportunity to chat quietly means more. A movie is not a good choice for a first date (you should not be talking!). A walk on a balmy moonlight night is sooo seductive for conversation and learning.

If he is someone I am intimate with and adore he knows me well and anywhere with him is good in my book. Sure he may ask for my input and then let's discuss what we have an urge for (food I mean).

As I matured I came to realize its not the money, place or activity... it's spending quality time with someone special and/or important to me.

Don't we WISH we knew it all, him or us ladies! I am SHOCKED but pleased to learn how much I did not know about my own physical body... and, I am THRILLED to discover my new man DOES. The things he does to my nerve endings... bliss.

Love, be open, accept and appreciate each other. Communicate.

Where he leads I will follow, smiling.

Aspire to Inspire before you Expire

I disagree

I think it is completely unreasonable to expect males to have strong opinions on things that can reasonably be expected to be trivial to them. In the scenario above it might just as well be supposed that the male does not even have good information on the restaurants in the area and may not know the culinary preferences of the woman in question. He may honestly not care, so why should he state a strong opinion? In fact he asked her first the question "where do you want to go?". Why should he not expect an answer to the question instead of getting the same question as an answer?


Why wouldn't he care?


Are you by any chance implying that it's reasonable to expect women to care more about the choice of restaurant, but that it's too "trivial" a matter for men to be concerned with? Or even worse, do you expect women to be concerned with trivial things, while men are concerned with more important things? (I don't know if that was your implication, but it sounded a bit that way; so that's why I'm asking. I would certainly find it insufferable if a man had an attitude like that, and I imagine most other women would, too.)

Even if the man does not have any strong preferences, and/or even if he is not familiar with restaurants in the area (or movies that are playing, etc.), surely he can still take charge of the situation in a stronger and more assertive manner than the scenario posted above. Some things he could say, for example:

"I would like Mexican or Chinese food tonight. Does that sound good to you?"

"I don't know the restaurants in this area very well. Tell me what's around here, and which places you like best."

"I'm not familiar with this area. Where can we find a cozy little Italian diner with pizza and lasagna?"

"We could go to X, Y, or Z. Tell me which of those you prefer."

"List a few places you would like, and I'll pick one."

The point is, he does not need to be an expert, nor to have a strong opinion on the matter, before he can take charge. The "Oh, I dunno, what do you feel like?" scenario just makes him seem wimpish and indifferent, like a cold fish flopping around out of the water.

What I would like, and what I think most women would like, is to know that it DOES matter to him where we go out to eat, or what movie we see. It matters to him because he wants us both to have a pleasant time together. It's not that he's overly fussy about it, or so demanding that he must have his own preferences given priority, or so inconsiderate that he doesn't care what the woman wants. It's just that he's spending an important evening with a very special lady, so he wants to do what he can to make it comfortable and enjoyable, and perhaps even enchanting.

That's not to say that a choice of restaurant is such a momentous and crucial decision in and of itself; because if the spark of romance is there, then it might not matter much if it's a quaint and charming bistro or a nondescript chain restaurant. But what is important is mainly the fact that he cares enough to make it a romantic evening. Because if he doesn't care, then it implies that it's no special thing to him to spend time with his woman. And few women would find that attitude appealing.

No matter how strong and confident and assertive a man is, if he does not also have some romantic fire kindled in his soul, then he will seem cold and boring.

He might care, but must he?

I am not trying to imply that it is unreasonable to expect the man to engage with the girlfriend, wife or whatever in order to reach a satisfactory decision. Your scenario, Taken In Hand reader, sounds quite reasonable to me. But to insist that the man make the decision on where to go, without consulting (which was the way I understood the original article), sounds a bit unreasonable, in general. I agree that the responses of the male, in the original scenario are enormously tiresome and wishy-washy, but then so are the responses of the female!

Choosing restaurants

I don't really see what's so awful about a woman being asked to choose a restaurant to go to. My husband recently asked me if I would like to go out somewhere on my birthday, and I told him I'd like to go to a restaurant I've eaten at before in a town about an hour's drive from where we live. It does exceptionally nice food.

i can't really see what is so terrible about a man being considerate and consulting a woman's tastes. Is he supposed to act like it doesn't matter at all what she wants?


I'm not going to say it

I'm not going to say it applies to all woman but I at least prefer it if a man asks "Would you like to go to Restaraunt X?" and I can respond "Actually I'd prefer Restaraunt Y" and we can talk about, though in my case I very much have a Taken In Hand relationship and the final decision is his. It's nice to see that he has an opinion, I don't like when I see him leaving decisions entirely up to me without some sort of explanation. Even if the man just asks if there are any good Italian places in the area or something. Knowing that he's not just bowing to my wishes is important.

Fear of Rejection

I have problems with "tests" in my relationship. My long-time girlfriend is a very intelligent, capable woman who loves playing games, but sometimes she doesn't realize that her games are not designed to test me (I'm too easy a mark); instead, her games are designed to test her ability to get what she wants without risking anything. If she's honest with herself, my only role in her secret game is to accept the blame if she fails. I'm not sure of the clinical term for her psychological games, but it must be an ugly sounding word.

The test usually plays out like this: She'll ask me to pick a restaurant, but I'm preoccupied and I genuinely don't care so I delegate the task back where it belongs. My refusal to pick a restaurant leaves her feeling unsatisfied. Unless she's really hurting, I often leave her to stew in her own self-pity. Somtimes she figures it out, sometimes she goes to war with me, sometimes she figures it out but still decides to go to war with me anyway, and sometimes I've been wrong *gasp*.

My mistakes notwithstanding, the problem is usually very simple. She asks "Where do you want to go for dinner?", but she means "Will you please take me out to dinner? I need to be taken out tonight". She won't ask me to meet her needs b/c she is too proud to be emotionally burdensome. Furthermore, she is petrified of being rejected if she puts her true feelings on the line.

I know women love emotional intrigue, but if the mind is cognizant of a specific need, emotional intrigue is more or less impossible. Real emotional intrigue happens when your partner does something for you, and you weren't aware you needed it or wanted it. It demonstrates that they might know things about you that you are not aware of (exciting, yes?). If you are aware of a specific need, you might as well let your partner in on your game so they can get some practice for the times when you feel bad but you don't exactly know why.

Oh, I must have had that exac

Oh, I must have had that exact same conversation with my ex more than a dozen times. It used to drive me crazy.

After asking me whether I fancied going out for food, I would always ask him where he would like to go. He would always respond with a shrug of his shoulders and a non-committal answer.

He brought up the idea?! So why does he now not have any thoughts on what he feels like?

His answer when I asked him this question once was that he honestly didn't care. It was too small a decision for him to have any interest in.

I can deal with that (although it is very offputting when someone couldn't care less about where you spend time together, has no interest in planning a wonderful time for us), but then, whatever suggestion I proposed, he would find something wrong with it. Every. Single. Time.

We once spent over two hours, where I took him to every restaurant I liked because he didn't want to make a decision. One was too pricy, another didn't have a large enough selection on the menu, another did food that he didn't feel like eating...when I finally exploded and demanded to know what he did feel like eating, he replied "I'm not fussed, I'm easy."

Easy?! Ha!

How about discussing it like adults and coming to a mutually satisfactory decision TOGETHER?

I would always love a guy to make a decision himself if he offers up a suggestion...taking my own tastes into account of course.

But this wishy washy beta male behaviour, with the following passive aggressive undertones is always going to be a huge turn off for most women in my experience.

(although it is very

(although it is very offputting when someone couldn't care less about where you spend time together, has no interest in planning a wonderful time for us), but then, whatever suggestion I proposed, he would find something wrong with it. Every. Single. Time.

This is sooooo frustrating.

When I was married, my husband would always be the one to suggest we go out to eat BUT NEVER pick a place to go. He would tell me to pick. I would and he ALWAYS found a reason he didn't want THAT place. What he really wanted was for me to run down the list of restaurants with him and let him say "yes" or "no" to each one.

I would get so frustrated and say, "you know all the restaurants we have here just like I do, why don't you run down the list in your own mind, decide and say, 'I'd like to take you out to eat at X, want to go?'" Instead he said he didn't care, told me to pick and vetoed my choices each and every time.

Not only did it feel like he never respected my choice (that he requested of me), but I felt him to be passive and indecisive and it really wasn't very attractive.

This article made me remember

This article made me remember a blind date I had with some guy a few years ago. We met over the Internet and it was the first (and only) time I would do something like this. I took all the necessary precautions, and we were supposed to meet at a shopping center with a movieplex. I arrived first and a few minutes before the agreed upon time. As the minutes went by, and he didn't appear, I started getting this awful feeling that I was going to be stood up. About 15 minutes after the appointed hour, I made the mistake of calling him. He made up some bull story of studying for a test (it was a Friday!) and not noticing the time. He seemed surprised when I told him that I was already in front of the movieplex. He asked for some time and around a half hour later he arrived. I have no idea if he liked me or not, but he invited me to have some snack before the movie and then, when it was time to choose the movie, he asked "what do you want to see?" I told him that whatever he chose would be fine with me. And he kept insisting, no, really, what do you want to see? Oh. My. God. If I still felt some sliver of attraction, it went out the window right there. We kept having this exchange for about a minute, until I finally decided that the guy was a lost cause and I had to choose a movie. Which was good enough punishment, for having called him in the first place when it was obvious that he wouldn't be showing up. He never called me again after that date. Which was fine by me. I learned my lesson.

Do we know less than women?

Do we know less than women about how to conduct relationships? I'm not so sure about that. Look at how few women know they need to be taken in hand and kept there. More guys know they need to be the boss than women know they need the guy to be the boss.